This month in our Humans of MHT series, Kayla Tsongas, MSW has a conversation with Allie Ramsey, LMFT about the power of limitedness and how denial can play a part in extending compassion to those who may think differently around us.
You will find the interview transcript below.
Kayla Tsongas: Hi Allie, welcome, thank you for meeting with me today.
Allie Ramsey: I'm excited, it will be fun.
KT: Great, well we have a couple set questions, so I can get started with the first question and we can just have a conversation as we go along, how does that sound?
AR: That sounds good!
KT: The first question is what does humanness mean to you?
AR: I had fun kind of thinking about that question because we did an interview series like this and that was one question we had to ponder a couple of years back, so it was interesting to think about my initial gut answer to that now and how that compares to what it was before and a lot of it is the same. I think I talked last time about how to me, I think a lot of what humanness means is just an incredible worthiness that an individual has to be loved and by loved, I mean to be respected and paid attention to and even maybe to be sacrificed for if the situation calls for it. But another part that comes to mind for me these days as an important component as well is limitedness. I think part of being human is to be limited, so I've been chewing on that a lot lately just maybe COVID or just experiencing my limits over time, I've come to maybe even valuing that element of our humanness, I think there's something freeing in it.
KT: Yeah absolutely, I love that idea of the limitedness as we can look at humanness in our society sometimes we put a lot of pressure on everyone around us to be something specific or be bigger than we truly can be, and putting some thought into what we are capable of to show up every day and how that may be changing and how some days are more limited and other days we have more capacity and to put a mind to that in a way that is very loving of the limitedness.
AR: Yes, that’s a good frame, I think maybe I'm still aspiring towards being loving of the limitedness. We do put a lot of pressure on other people, not intentionally, and also on ourselves to not have the limits that we have, and I think it takes grieving to move through that because sometimes the things that we are hoping for, the ways we're hoping people won't have limits would make a big difference for us you know. So, it can really be a loss to accept the limits but then it allows us to enjoy what's possible.
KT: Absolutely, that kind of brings to mind the expectations that we have for ourselves and for others around us and how much do we expect from the relationships that we have, and for people to show up in a specific way, or for ourselves to show up in a specific way. Those expectations relating to the limitedness can be difficult to navigate and how feelings around and to truly sit and think about what your expectations for yourself and others are and what that means in our individual humanness as well.
AR: I also think we live in, maybe in LA in particular, but just in general, in the States, we glorify business, like it's the only valid reason for saying no to something is because you're too busy. I saw someone writing about that and just encouraging us to get in the habit of saying, I'm not too busy I'm just limited, and I think that is probably part of why that word came to mind it it's just felt resonant for me. There's something about choosing to really intentionally be aware of our limitedness that I think maybe makes us wiser about how we spend our time instead of just cramming it in until we're at absolute max capacity.
“There’s something about choosing to really intentionally be aware of our limitedness that I think maybe makes us wiser about how we spend our time instead of just cramming it in until we’re at absolute max capacity.”
KT: Yeah really love that, I would like to embody that more, to say no because I am limited in my capacity and not to just say no because I'm already too busy and past my limits. I like that a lot. Do you feel ready to move on to my next question?
AR: Sure.
KT: You chose Denial as your word from David Whyte’s Consolations, where he unpacks various aspects of being human and I'd love to talk about what was meaningful about this word to you.
AR: Yes, denial stood out to me because, well I don't know why it seems like it is sort of a fun word to me, but I like the way David Whyte talks about denial, he talks about how denial belongs to all of us, and no human is really above denial in fact is something that it has some important functions that it serves for us. It buffers us from elements of reality that we are not yet equipped to face. He kind of talks about for children, for example, there are really good functions for denial, like young children aren’t meant to fully be grappling with the fact that they're going to die one day, and we're not really meant to force that into their minds too early. So, there are good things about being able to hold outside of, like on the periphery of our vision, different difficult aspects of life and of reality because it would be too much for us. So, if we can stay a certain amount of in denial then it allows us to live in and to be present to life to the extent that we're able to. I think it's just a good reminder that that is a process that doesn't ever really fully end so children obviously have maybe the most denial, some of that is also just brain development and capacity to understand things, but we continue to have certain amounts of denial throughout our entire life span and sometimes we probably move in and out of denial. I know I've experienced myself moving in and out of denial about how tenuous life is depending on how much I'm confronted with that, whether for myself or for loved ones, and when I'm not being heavily confronted with it, it's typically on the periphery of my vision. I'm not emotionally grappling with it every day. What I liked about what David Whyte talked about is that it belongs to all of us and has good functions and then also he talks about how it's kind of a stepping stone for us to have some compassion for other people. So, what I have thought about maybe with COVID and with how politically intense this past year has been, is how easy it is to have contempt for people who live in denial of different things than we do and there's something helpful about recognizing that there is a certain amount of denial in all of us that just maybe moves us towards a little bit of humility and compassion, even if we still disagree. Even if we still need to hold people accountable depending on the circumstances, but maybe it can help move us out of contempt and I don't think that's a very good place for us to dwell, so anything that helps move us out of contempt, I like.
“There’s something helpful about recognizing that there is a certain amount of denial in all of us that just maybe moves us towards a little bit of humility and compassion, even if we still disagree. ”
KT: Yes, contempt feels very polarizing. Compassion feels much more community oriented, bringing people together. I appreciate what you're saying as you're speaking about denial, it's making me think of the inclusivity that thinking about denial in this way can actually bring and how it can bring us all together. Then thinking about capacity and what capacity do we have for dealing with the really tough things that go on in our lives, that maybe denial is that protective mechanism that we're using to keep ourselves safe, and everyone has that.
AR: Yes and just functional. Because it takes so much emotional and mental space to really, fully attend to different things at once, I guess that goes back to limitedness.
KT: It's all connected.
AR: It's all connected.
KT: Absolutely. Then the last question for today is how does humanness show up in your work as a clinician?
AR: Well, I guess going back to the two things that I mentioned before that stand out to me about humanness, is the first being worthiness, to be loved, and again in that meaning like being respected and paid attention to and be treated honestly. First of all, I have to get grounded in that myself, my own worthiness, and for me I think my faith is a really big foundation to be able to dwell there and feel rooted there. But if I'm feeling secure in that mindset towards myself, I find that I able to be present in a way that I don't think I would be able to otherwise in my clinical work. But also, it's a framework that I bring with me, that kind of perspective of the worthiness, of achievement, to be respected and to be treated honestly and paid attention to that makes my clinical work feel really meaningful to me because any session is an opportunity to do that. I think also there is a way that we often don't expect to be treated or received in that kind of way when we reveal something that we find to be shameful about ourselves or we feel like is a weakness. I know from my own experiences that when people have received me in a respectful and caring and empathetic way, I feel something like that, it's been pretty transformative. So, I think therapy is an opportunity where I get a chance to extend that to others and that's a real gift for me. That's one of the best things ever, I really love that. Then limitedness shows up in my work as a clinician because I like fall short all the time, even if I don't want to and you wish to not ever do that for my clients, it is going to happen. Something that I like about therapy though is that, at least in therapy, we have a chance to really talk about what that is like for my clients. Disappointment like that is such a part of human relationships, any relationship, that lasts, you know, maybe longer than a week. But a lot of the times it's too charged or difficult to talk about outside of therapy, maybe for the first time, and in therapy we can learn how to talk about what it feels like to be disappointed and work through the meaning of that, and the impact of that. I find that there can be something redemptive or healing. Even when disappointment comes, there can be something good that comes out of processing what it's like and staying connected or finding a way back to feeling connected after that.
“In therapy we can learn how to talk about what it feels like to be disappointed and work through the meaning of that, and the impact of that. I find that there can be something redemptive or healing. Even when disappointment comes, there can be something good that comes out of processing what it’s like and staying connected or finding a way back to feeling connected after that.”
KT: Well thank you so much for spending the time today, it was a lovely conversation.
AR: You're welcome, thank you Kayla.
Allie Ramsey, LMFT has worked with individuals and families on a broad range of issues, including trauma, relational challenges, adoption, anxiety, depression, faith integration, and aging. She has training and experience in a wide variety of treatment modalities, and works to tailor her therapeutic approach to the unique needs of each client.
Kayla Tsongas, MSW deeply believes in the fundamentality of imagination, creativity and play for the development of children and adults alike. She invites clients of all ages to be curious about their relationships, struggles, and dreams within a framework of creativity and emotional safety. She recognizes collaboration between client and therapist as a foundational ingredient to psychotherapy – a process that is marked by deep exploration, which can potentially foster change and build resilience.