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Taz Morgan

Reckoning with Racism / Turning To Love: An Interview with Manon Voice, Poet & Activist

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Reckoning with Racism / Turning To Love: An Interview with Manon Voice, Poet & Activist

....coming into my own blackness has been such a journey. And it’s been such a trying journey. It’s been a difficult journey that the process of decolonizing your own mind from living in a society where white is the norm, where blackness is seen as deviant, where blackness is seen as inferior, the journey and the courage that one undergoes to reclaim their sense of identity – so me as an African American woman reclaiming my sense of identity that has been systemically and very intentionally in this country oppressed, that has been dismissed, that has been erased, is such a revolutionary act of courage.
— Manon Voice

Taz Morgan: I’m so delighted to be speaking with Manon Voice. She is a poet, hip hop emcee, spoken word artist, and social justice activist from Indianapolis. She’s also a friend to MHT. She joined us at our first annual retreat last October and basically performed for us one night and led us through some exercises to help us get reflective about love and community. We thought you’d be a great person to interview. We kind of want to continue the conversation around race. In December one of my colleagues Chelsea interviewed a psychoanalyst Dr. Lynne Jacobs. She writes a lot about whiteness in the therapy world. And we thought you, Manon, would have, I don’t know, just help us make this conversation interesting. To continue the dialogue. So yea, I guess we’ll start from there!

Manon Voice: Thank you for having me. I am very grateful to be a friend of MHT, the group there. I was very delighted to be among you all and begin a beautiful relationship – so very, very glad to now be reconnecting a couple months later. I had such a good experience with you all in the beautiful mountains of Idyllwild, California. I had some very transformative experiences there. Even as I was sharing with you all, there were things going on within me, that I’m even just unpacking in my own journey and in my own life. So yes, I’m very, very grateful for that experience with you that just began a beautiful relationship and friendship. So thank you for having me.

TM: Yea, thank you. So I guess I’m curious about how your work, or how you see poets contributing to changing narratives, changing conversations on race. We, MHT, is a predominantly white practice, white women. And you know, we’re trying to contend with that. I think it can feel, you know, I can feel nervous, like I don’t want to make a mistake. I’m thinking, how can we make the next best step in addressing privilege. We really value poetry at our practice. Just wondering how your work intersects with these ideas or these questions.

MV: So, I’ll sort of start with you had asked me about poetry. The poetic lineage, which I always like to pay homage to, is that of African American poets in this country and they start as far back as Phyllis Wheatly who was actually a slave.

TM:  Did you say Phyllis? Phyllis Wheatly?

MV: Yes…and she actually published a book of poetry and then was taken to trial for it because they couldn’t believe that she could actually write as well as she did. But she eventually bought her way to freedom because she was so profound and her poetry was beautiful. So, we can talk about people like that. And also people like Paul Laurence Dunbar who has a famous poem We Wear the Mask and The Caged Bird - Maya Angelou borrows from that poem. He was living during the Reconstruction Era and talks about the realities of African Americans struggling through post-slavery society. And then we can go a little further up to the Harlem Renaissance, and we can talk about poets like Langston Hughes and James Weldon Johnson and they were expressing the realities of what it felt like for African Americans at that time to be living at a time when there was such intense racial upheaval, especially living in Harlem at the time, and there were the race riots that were going on in 1919. So they were talking about the brutalities of what African Americans were experiencing at that time. And what it was like to feel like a second-class citizen. We can go a little further up to poets like [Gwendolyn] Brooks - her work talked about the migration of 20 million African Americans from the south at that time; who traveled north and west and east to make better lives for themselves. Then we can go a little further up and talk about the Black Arts Movement, right alongside the Civil Rights Movement. These poets were Nikki Giovanni and Sonia Sanchez and Amiri Baraka and they were talking about that time of also racial unrest. That time where they were willing to take a different stand. They were willing to claim their own power. They were willing to celebrate blackness in this new kind of riveting way. And they were also activists. They spoke the language, but they also walked the walk. And that took them expressing themselves through the art was a vehicle of revolution. It was not separate. It was something that was very integral. And I look at my path as also being very, very similar to those poets who I consider my ancestors who I credit my journey and the work I’m doing now to the blueprint that they left. Audre Lorde, a beautiful black feminist queer writer, talks about how poetry is not a luxury - especially for African Americans, but particularly for African American women. And that’s who she was talking about. The use of language and how we reckon with what’s going on in the world through words, through art, is a powerful medium. It’s a powerful medium that helps us stay grounded with what we know to be true about who we are when we live in a world that wants to denigrate that, that wants to despise our existence. It is a way of staying sane, of looking in the mirror and claiming our own identity, claiming our own sense of blackness, our own sense of queerness, our own sense of womanhood. And then it is also a way to speak truth to power and to confront the systems and to confront the systemic problems that we are faced with. I do view my art as activism and that’s not separate. The ethos of my work...I always like to say that I consider myself a little bit of a poetic journalist, if I can say that. Really looking at the issues that we face, looking at the past, the present, and the future, and looking at the issues that we are being confronted with, especially when it comes to social justice issues. But also thinking about who we can be. So I want my work to always have some hope and to be holding out for hope about who we can be. This is where we are...we have to be honest with ourselves if we’re going to make changes. We have to be able to face what’s uncomfortable, what’s ugly. (Audio disrupted) One of my favorite writers, Toni Morrison, and I’m paraphrasing this genius of a woman, she basically says “This is no time to crouch in fear.” And then she says “We do language, and that’s how civilization heals. That’s how we keep moving forward.” And so I see my work as being in that kind of schema.

TM:  There’s just a... I don’t know...there’s humility in what you speak of in paying homage to this lineage...this love for the people who came before you or your ancestors.

MV: Absolutely, yes. 

TM: That just seems like an important element of your activism, or that idea of an artist being an activist – knowing where…how you got to where you are, where you come from. My introduction to you was through watching your video where you’re performing Dark Matter. Could you just talk a little more about that? You know, “Blackness is a Miracle” is a line that’s repeated. I’m so curious as to how you birthed that, how it came into being, what it means to you.  

MV: Sure. Well, it’s definitely and unequivocally a celebration of blackness, an elevation of blackness. There’s a lot of, I think, probably mysticism that is also sort of threaded through there as I’m talking about how everything starts, right, the world as we know it, or the world as we comprehend it, how everything sort of began in darkness and the world was formed from that. So I’m sort of using that as this theme about everything comes from the dark womb, how everything comes from blackness, and how civilization as we know it began in Africa, right? What we call the mother country, the mother home, that’s where the cradle of civilization began - somewhere in Northern Africa. So we have started with blackness, we have come out of the darkness of the universe, being a dark people, and how we have, in this country particularly, when we talk about whiteness there is the contrast, this illusion that has been created to benefit one group of people over another. The premise of that was that darkness, dark skin was demonic, was of the devil, was bad, and that white people, just for having white skin, a white complexion, that they are superior. That white people are superior based on just that, which is just a huge and a grave deception. Living in this country as a black person of African descent, who, you know I think about - I think I talked a bit about this – my great grandmother being a sharecropper and being from Mississippi, and Mississippi was one of the states that was one of the worst record keeping states. In fact, there were people in my family who thought that their birthday was one day, and then maybe found out later. So, I’ve been cut off from a lot of my history. From my own personal experience, coming into my own blackness has been such a journey. And it’s been such a trying journey. It’s been a difficult journey that the process of decolonizing your own mind from living in a society where white is the norm, where blackness is seen as deviant, where blackness is seen as inferior, the journey and the courage that one undergoes to reclaim their sense of identity – so me as an African American woman reclaiming my sense of identity that has been systemically and very intentionally in this country oppressed, that has been dismissed, that has been erased, is such a revolutionary act of courage. And it’s a necessary and revolutionary act of courage that every day, when I see myself, when I look in the mirror, that I reclaim my own identity. That I reclaim my own beauty. That I reclaim my own lineage. That I reclaim my own heritage as a black person in this country. And that that blackness is beautiful, that that blackness is brilliant. What I do know about where we come from as African Americans is a history of genius, and it’s a history of exploits, and it’s a history of miracles, and it’s a history of people making contributions to history, people making contributions to civilization in ways that we are still studying and trying to figure out. So that poem really came out of that, that blackness is a miracle, to live in this country every day and to survive it as a black person is miraculous, I feel. And I don’t think that I’m alone in that sentiment. When you exist within a system where there is, not only just a threat of physical violence, but there’s the psychological warfare that’s going on everyday.

TM:  Yeah, it’s psychic warfare too.

MV: Yeah, it’s been necessary to look at the physical violence and the physical brutality, it’s been so necessary to look at that, but what really cracks, I think, at the soul, even beyond the body, is the psychological warfare that is endured day to day to day to day, the microaggressions that are endured. You know, at this point in my life I have worked many many jobs. And I’ve worked for people who claim to be liberals and claim to be inclusive and culturally competent who had no idea of some of the distasteful language that they were using around people they deemed other than them, and the way that we survived that, and the way that we endured that, and the way that we sometimes feel like how much – the way we have to make daily decisions about what do we fight or what do we not. 

TM: Right.

MV: Yeah, and so it’s like, what do I put my energy into fighting today because my coworker just said this, or my boss just said this, and even though it hurts, but I still have to keep my job, maybe I have children at home, I have bills due so I can’t quit…

TM: Right, or the taxing nature of being like “I’m becoming the representative of everyone that looks like me.”

MV: Yeah, and you know sometimes it can just be, aside from that, that people have not reckoned with their own sense of othering others, you know?

TM: Yeah.

MV: And so, you know, they don’t realize some of the harmful things that they’re saying, they don’t realize some of the harmful practices that they are carrying out that are really harmful to the spirits of people of color and of marginalized people. And I’ve existed within that. I can tell you I have two friends that don’t know each other - this is really interesting because they worked for the same organization and they were in the same role as the person who was responsible for diversity and inclusion, and these were two black women, and both of them left. And both of them when they told me why they left, they really had almost identical stories. Like how they were sort of used as puppets for this organization to appear that this organization was diverse and inclusive, but when they challenged some of the decisions, some of the policies that were going on within the organization, then the powers-that-be refused. They just wanted to kind of look diverse and look inclusive on the face, we wanna put you on the flyers, and we’re gonna have you at the events as the black face, but we really don’t want to do the root work, you know?

TM: Yeah, yeah.

MV: So, we’re coming up against, and the challenge that we have is the performative justice vs doing the actual root work.

TM: Right and I think that’s why at MHT, we’re trying to ask ourselves what that work -  real work - would look like. That’s what we’re trying to ask ourselves internally at this point. I don’t know. I think some of what you were saying earlier about having the courage, or to kind of get out of these illusions, I mean some of what you were saying reminds me a little bit about the courage to start going to therapy - to kind of face things about yourself that feel scary or ugly or whatever. I’m trying to put words to, I don’t know, we’re just trying to figure out what kind of conversations do we want to be having, and how to walk the walk and not just think just in general. There’s this movement in the psychotherapy world to take stands on social issues – whether it’s therapists or an organization saying separating kids from their parents at the border has detrimental effects or whatever. 

I truly believe that love is the strongest force in the universe. And I know how love can sound like a cop-out when we are facing really threatening issues. Everyone wants to talk about love. But I don’t cheapen love. Real love challenges us to grow. It challenges us to transform, to change, and to live up to who we can be as human beings. And I believe in that.
— Manon Voice

MV: And I think that we’ll have to talk about who, because you know we also have to reckon with access to mental healthcare. 

TM: Yeah!

MV: Talk about who in this country is able to use mental health resources and the hierarchy of who we believe deserves it even. I think that’s a conversation that we have to have, and quite unfortunately we are still wrestling with the fact that there have been a lot of people that have benefited from the system within mental healthcare services, and you know, I’m not an expert, but I do have friends that work in these fields, and I’ve also gone to therapy for years, and I know that just like very profession deserves, it has its rank in as far as how long a person has gone to school, but there’s also this conversation about so many people being left out of receiving mental health care services because of poverty, and poverty is systemic. And it’s a vicious cycle because the people who are most traumatized in this country, and are the most marginalized in this country, often feel like they don’t have access to mental health. And that is really unfortunate because of the amount of trauma that one endures day to day to day. And even when they do go to see a mental health professional, they feel like “you can’t understand…”

TM: Yeah! They feel the compounded trauma of being othered in a space where theoretically you’d be understood.

MV: Yep. I have a friend who just had a general practice where she was just sort of seeing whoever would come. And then she changed and she decided to focus on – she said “you know what, I want to make my practice focused on the most marginalized – people of color and people who are queer,” because these are the people who are undergoing a lot of trauma that is very specific to their sense of identity in this country, and who also feel marginalized when they go into their normal therapist’s office who is probably white, who they feel like can’t relate to what they’re going through. And so I do feel it is important for therapists, for white mental health practitioners and clinicians, to start having these important conversations. I am glad to hear that MHT is taking steps towards understanding that. Like I really am. And I think the tools, I think that we have tools. I think it’s a personal and it’s a spiritual journey, and it’s also a practical journey – sort of undoing your own bias, your own racism. 

TM: Yeah!

Manon Voice, Poet & Activist.png

MV: There are implicit bias classes that at least give you an access point to know that this is some biases that you have. I know where I’m from, Indianapolis, we have an undoing racism course that I know it used to be free where it’s like anybody could come. Whether that’s the board of organizations or that was just a person who just walked off the street and was just sort of interested in taking that journey. And so...I was looking at the last interview that was done with the doctor…

TM: Yeah, Lynne Jacobs, yeah.

MV: And I saw the list of books and resources that were there at the end, so there’s a lot of knowledge out there, and there are a lot of ways for people to kind of get started on taking that journey. 

TM: I know on Instagram there were a lot of people following Layla Saad who did the Me and White Supremacy workbook. And I think she now has a book. White followers were going through this course...it was about implicit bias. There is a real self-reflective thing that is being called for. 

MV: Yeah.

TM: What you said about language...giving voice...really naming things also resonates with my idea of psychoanalysis or psychotherapy...is the idea of “speaking the unspeakable” and giving voice to things from the unconscious. Also, you were saying that your work is hopeful. There’s hope in it, too. To close our conversation a bit....How does hope...I don’t know...What do you envision for the future of this country? Gosh, that feels like such a BIG question!

MV: We’re in a deep time of reckoning. What we are seeing and what we are experiencing....we talk about polarization and this intense socio-political climate that we’re living in where folks feel so divided; feel more separate from each other. Honestly,  I look at that because... As psychotherapists, you do the work of taking people through the journey of the subconscious, through the ego...of getting through that deeper sediment that blinds us all. And we have to get through all that ugliness sometimes. Right? And I’ve been in therapy…

TM: Right, you generally feel a lot worse before you start to feel better. 

MV: Miserable!

TM: Yeah, miserable. (Laughs).

MV: It can take a long time. You feel miserable. You are confronting your shadow. In this country, we have not done a good job. We have wanted to jump these steps when we need to go back. And we have to really….I use this term “repentant.” [We have to repent.] I know it’s gonna have a religious connotation. But when I look at the root meaning of that word, it actually means “to turn.” 

TM: Oh, wow.

MV: Yeah, making a turn. The only way to do that is to reckon with what’s been done. And we don’t want to do that as a country. Some of us do and some of us can’t help but live in that reality. The white majority in this country….the systemic oppression and the problems we have in this country stem from this idea of superiority, colonialism, and “white is right” and through that belief there were Native Americans that were decimated and displaced; there were Africans that were stolen and brought here for free labor and who built this country for hundreds of years and who are still second class citizens. We have to start from the very beginning and go back and say “Wow, this has been done. And we have been responsible.” If I’m living today, I feel like “Oh no…”

TM: Right, that idea of “it has nothing to do with me.”

MV: I think white people have to reckon with the fact that they have benefitted from a system. That reckoning has to happen. It can start small. It can start within an organization, within a church, within a neighborhood. It’s not gonna trickle down. Looking like our government now, it’s not gonna trickle down. Maybe it will make its way up. I think that sometimes….I know for sure what we are seeing is a result of what we have not been willing to deal with. There are so many of us asking: How did we get here? Why are we here? Why are things so divided? Why are things so intense? And doing that [the work of reckoning with our racist history] means doing the long, deep shadow work and that’s where it has to start -- taking that long, honest look at what’s been done and who has benefited and who has not benefited. And so, I was getting to the hope in that….

TM: I was thinking about that...Yeah, hope can be so loaded. I’m thinking of this interview that Stephen Colbert did with Ta-Nehisi Coates. Where Colbert asks Coates what he is hopeful about with his divide and polarization [in terms of race relations in the US]. And Coates said “I don’t have any hope.” I was thinking “Gosh, hope is such a loaded term. ...I love the language of repenting and turning. And I think your poetry...it’s like….there’s delight and joy and pleasure in it, too. 

MV: Thank you for that reflection. That’s honestly so important for me, Taz. It’s important for me to also be a part of beauty-making.

TM: Yeah, it’s so moving and so beautiful. It’s aesthetically beautiful. 

MV: Thank you. I truly believe that love is the strongest force in the universe. And I know how love can sound like a cop-out when we are facing really threatening issues.  Everyone wants to talk about love. But I don’t cheapen love. Real love challenges us to grow. It challenges us to transform, to change, and to live up to who we can be as human beings. And I believe in that. The reason why I get up... If I get up in the morning...existing in this world, as tragic and disheartening as it can sometimes be...The reason why I walk out my door and say hello and good morning to someone that I don’t know is because deep inside, I want to believe in the best of humanity - that we all have something divine; that we all have something in us that is truly, truly good. If we can get through this shadow energy; if we can reckon with ourselves...if we can do that true repenting and that true reconciling, then we can create a better world. To call myself a social justice activist or advocate, but then not believe it could get better, I feel like it’s counterproductive. I’m working for a future that I want for generations...when you and I are no longer here...like in 7 generations...I want them to be so further along in this conversation. All of us can commit to that day by day...whether we want to call it hope or something else. The truth is that when we work for change, that’s exactly what we are doing - we are working to create something better. Even if I don’t see it in my lifetime, Taz… I want my grandchildren’s children, children, children... to be able to see; to live in a better world; to see a world where they are not threatened; where have a sense of belonging. If I want it for them, then I have to truly want that for every human being on this earth, no matter what color they are. I have to truly want that for every human being. In my deepest heart of hearts, I really do want that. And that’s where that hope, that beauty comes in. So, at the same time I’m speaking truth, it’s also undergirded with love and hope that we can really do better as human beings. Every day we are being called to do better and to make those small decisions. It can start in your neighborhood, with your friend, with your co-workers to have those conversations that allow us to heal these deep rifts that we have. I believe it’s possible. 

TM: That feels like a good place to end, too. Again, that’s so moving. Affectively….ahhh...I can keep going. What you were saying about waking up...Like, Why wake up everyday and just be an adult?...it’s for the love of humanity. That was very moving. I wondered if you had any closing thoughts for now. Anything else on your mind?

MV: I live among beautiful people who are doing things everyday to move the notch forward. While it’s so easy to look at the news and be discouraged, you can also just look around and see….There’s a no-questions-asked food pantry in my community that just celebrated their 1-year anniversary of providing food to people without needing to ask all these questions about where you live, how much money you make, and if you deserve it. I have a friend who is doing that. And I have friends who are challenging policies that are harmful to the most marginalized. I have friends who are talking to city officials about responsible policing. I have friends who are running after school clubs to mentor young people. I have friends who are using their art to provoke dialogue around issues and who are using their art to beautify neighborhoods. My best friend is a brilliant teacher. I look around in my world and I do see the good. I think the good is contagious. The bad is too (Laughs). But the good is contagious. We can all do something. If we can look at the turning...I do see some important dialogue. We can argue about how late we are. But I do feel like we are having more dialogue about race relations in this country, at least  from my purview and my experience. And about all kinds of other issues about who benefits and who doesn’t. I think that the turmoil is part of the process. I think if we stay focused on that...I think that focus has to be really intentional, not just complacency. All of us can do something. I just want to encourage others to be part of the change and to also look around at your community to those that are doing the work and trying to help. I see you doing this...or I see you started this non-profit organization where you’re helping the homeless...Can I join the board? Or can I help spread the word? Or help in some way? Seeing the good, valuing the good, and coming alongside the good!

TM: Those are helpful, small, actionable things. I love that idea of a turn - a turn to love, a love turn. Thank you so much for your time. And for your energy and your mind and your heart.

MV: I’m happy just to share. And grateful for the work that you guys are doing there. Let’s keep healing. Let’s keep at it!


Manon Voice is a native of Indianapolis, Indiana and is a poet and writer, spoken word artist, hip-hop emcee, educator, social justice activist and practicing contemplative. Manon Voice seeks to use her art and activism to create a communal space where dialogue, transformation, discovery and inspiration can occur.


Taz MorganMA, is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Gabrielle Taylor, PhD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

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Home: A Process

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Home: A Process

This November, MHT is participating in the Miry’s List Friendsgiving Fundraising Drive. The money goes to programs that support refugee families that have been resettled in the United States. In tandem with these efforts, our clinicians are writing posts reflecting on what home means to them.

That process of coming home to my inner world and to an expanded vision for my self in the outer world was one very much marked by stumbling and meandering.
Taz Morgan

There was a process of coming home to my self that I was immersed in during the time that I ‘discovered’ the stack of books in my photo. I use quotations here for discovered because the books all somehow found me - through recommendations from trusted people in my life - more so than I found them. Each of their authors helped me to get in touch with my desire to become a psychotherapist after traveling along a much different career trajectory for years. That process of coming home to my inner world and to an expanded vision for my self in the outer world was one very much marked by stumbling and meandering.

I was (and will always be, I think) enamored with the idea that so much about the human psyche is unknowable - and yet since childhood I have had a hunger for knowledge about what makes us tick, grieve, or love. How does one become a person? What does it mean to be alive? What makes this life so painful and yet so rewarding at the same time? Many open-ended questions! These four books scratched some itches, but moreover, they initiated me into a deeper dialogue with ideas that had been swirling around in my head without much of a home to play in. It was a moving experience to encounter others, either from the past or present time, that were contending with these questions in such nuanced ways. It’s that sensation of finding something so right and so precise — it’s almost uncanny. Or the feeling of making a new friend when you have a moment of “No way, you too!? Wow, I thought I was the only one who _____.” Somehow the language that I found in these books reflected to me that I wasn’t alone and helped me remember that my mind was in relationship to other minds. They articulated things that I knew to be true in my gut, but unable to name with language before. This is what home signifies to me: it is a series of movements informed by resonance and reciprocity. And it’s a place to be known and understood - a place to be in dialogue - a place to be in process in a way that allows space for us to get to know ourselves and others over and over again. 


Taz’s Library (left to right):

-Quiet by Susan Cain

-Far from the Tree by Andrew Solomon

-Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach

-We’ve Had One Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World’s Getting Worse by James Hillman and Michael Ventura


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Give! Visit our Miry’s List campaign page and make a donation. It's that simple and no sum is too small. Truly.

Follow! Be sure to follow us on Instagram and our blog throughout the month of November. We will be reflecting on what it means to be welcomed, received, and known.

Share!  Help us spread the word. You can do this by sharing our social media posts or links to our Miry’s List Friendsgiving Fundraiser page.

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A little about Miry’s List:
Refugee families come to the United States seeking a safe haven from violence and persecution in their home countries. They leave behind family and friends, as well as virtually everything they own. Many Americans, seeing these families in their communities, wonder: What can I do to help? Miry's List provides a mechanism for people to directly help new arrival refugee families with the things that they need to get started in their new lives – from diapers to beds to cleaning supplies and toiletries. To learn more, visit miryslist.org.


Taz MorganMA, is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Gabrielle Taylor, PhD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

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Women are NOT their Genitalia

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Women are NOT their Genitalia

One is not born, but rather becomes, woman.
— Simone de Beauvoir

Filling in the statement “women are….” with “not their genitalia” was a move rather out of character. There’s something about it that’s a little risky, a little provocative, perhaps even a little exhibitionistic — qualities that aren’t completely foreign to me but not readily accessed and even less so in a public forum. I tend to take the road of making myself palatable — and more and more I’m realizing* that it isn’t only a matter of temperament but also something that has been shaped by cultural messages about how a woman should be (*with thanks to women like Adrienne Harris who write so eloquently on the complexity and fluidity of gender and its cultural situatedness). 

That all said, I must admit that the statement on my t-shirt didn’t originate from me. It was essentially stolen (with permission) from my friend M — who is one of the most badass women I’ve ever known. When I asked her to complete the sentence at hand, she responded without hesitation: “Not their genitalia.”

I felt a resounding YES. The phrase somehow distilled and articulated so many disparate thoughts into one phrase. It spoke to my desire to make space for transwomen in this conversation about what it means to be a woman — and to be sensitive to the fact that not every woman has a vagina. And as we here at MHT raise awareness about human trafficking this month, it feels important to note that transgender youth are particularly vulnerable to labor and sexual exploitation

And it brings to mind Simone de Beauvoir’s declaration that “One is not born, but rather becomes, woman.”

It spoke to the trauma of being a woman — and to something about the word pussy showing up in mainstream media during the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

And it spoke to reclamations of womanhood that allowed for rage and joy. To all the pussy hats at women’s marches. To Pussy Riot. To Janelle Monáe’s music video for Pynk. To female sexuality as an embodied space for varied experience. 

We aren’t used to seeing bold celebrations of the mighty yoni. And for that matter…the same could be said about menstruation, menopause, or the “fourth trimester.” 

The sentiment is women are not ONLY their genitalia. We aren’t only pussies to be grabbed. 

We OWN our own genitalia. We OWN our own sexuality. We OWN how we define ourselves. 

My hope for the future is that we all begin to tell a more inclusive and expansive story about womanhood. And, I believe, that will require you and me to show up to the conversation with our whole selves, armed with creativity, openness toward fumbling around, and willingness to take risks. 


HERE'S HOW YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN DRESSEMBER WITH US:

Give! Visit our Dressember page and make a donation. It's that simple and no sum is too small. Truly.

Follow! Be sure to follow us on Instagram and our blog throughout the month of December. We will be documenting our fierce fashion choices but our deepest intention is to empower and educate.

Share!  Help us spread the word. You can do this by sharing our social media posts or links to our Dressember fundraising campaign page.


Taz MorganMA, is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Gabrielle Taylor, PhD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

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Mindfully Living and Parenting in the Digital Age: An Interview with Technology Expert Jeff Harwell

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Mindfully Living and Parenting in the Digital Age: An Interview with Technology Expert Jeff Harwell

Taz Morgan: I’m here with Jeff Harwell. He is our guest this month. We’re centering our theme around social media and technology. With any theme that we are exploring, we don’t just wanna say “Oh, this thing is all bad. Or this thing is all good.” We are interested in the nuances. This is a huge topic that we are trying to grapple with, but we’re interested in how both social media and technology in general are impacting our lives and our client’s lives. In prepping for this interview, I was thinking through episodes of Black Mirror that I’ve watched. [Laughs]. But why don’t you, Jeff, start with telling us about what you do for work?

Jeff Harwell: I’m the Chief Technology Officer at Fuller Theological Seminary…I’ve been in that role for about two years. Prior to that, I was the IT Director. I’ve been at Fuller since 2003 in various capacities within the IT Department. My undergraduate degree is in Engineering Physics and that’s when I got into computers.

I love to build things…I think the reason I ended up in management is because I love to build systems, build processes, build organizations. There’s magic if you can get people working together, believing in a cause and when all the piece are in place…it’s amazing.

[Edited out video due to tech issues with the sound!]

Taz: I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about how your role as a parent has impacted your understanding of technology, in general, and social media, specifically. I think a lot of the news stories I read too [about social media] are about teens and “digital natives.” Yeah, I think a lot more therapists are seeing [considering the implications of] social media being part of a teen’s life. I know a lot of…or I feel like I’ve read that a lot of teens….their dream job now is to be a YouTube star or to be a vlogger. What are your thoughts on all of this? (Laughs).

Jeff: I’m gonna throw a couple of things at you and then we’ll see if they cohere at all. And my soon-to-be teenage daughter is sitting here on the couch. I’ll be telling her…I’ll give her all my secrets. I think, oh,…she’s got headphones on, and she’s watching YouTube, so… (Laughs). But probably listening….

…I’m an adoptive parent. And I think one of the things that…being an adoptive parent does, especially being international when you adopt, when they’re older, it drives home the point that you’re not in control. As much as we want to be in control, as much as we feel like…I think there can be an illusion of control in a lot of ways in parenting…we’re not in control. (Laughs). 

One of the really interesting effects of technology…and you see this facet of technology is driving a lot of [technology] adoption, like widely-used technology is so big in the financial industry because of this fact. Technology makes…you can make everything auditable. So, your phone knows where you, it knows every interaction you make, every email, every text, every place you visit, how many steps you take. I’ve got my FitBit. It knows what I eat; it knows when I sleep. All that information is going off to the cloud somewhere. In theory, if someone put the data stream together, they would know everything I do. Everything I read. Everywhere I go. Everything I eat. When I get up. When I go to bed. 

Taz: And who are the people that you talk to the most. Yeah, it’s all trackable.

Jeff: And then once you combine other people’s phones, you know who I’m with; when I’m with them. So, that is incredibly alluring. We won’t get into the privacy debate or the Orwellian aspects of this. There’s a lot that is very concerning. And you combine that with big data.…and the kinds of things that you can learn from correlating things together can be very surprising and unnerving. But to the case in point, so, my daughter has an iPad. We live in L.A., so it’s not like she goes out and plays because (laughs) you know…somehow getting hit by a car is the least terrifying thing I can imagine. So, she’s either in the house with an adult, or she’s at school, or she’s at some structured social event. That’s how we roll in Los Angeles. Now, I can see all her interactions. 

I think one of the really important things to realize when parenting in the age of technology is that there is a temptation to micro-manage because you can.

So, twenty years ago or more…I’m older now…more like thirty…my parents had nowhere near that much insight into my life. They didn’t know all my interactions. I’d go rode my bike; you’d get into all sorts of things. You know…talking to people you hear stories. Parents learn so many years later…(laughs) they would have totally freaked if they had known what we did and what we had gotten into. I think one of the really important things to realize when parenting in the age of technology is that there is a temptation to micro-manage because you can. We now have as parents in the digital age unprecedented insight and control that no generation has had before. I’ll tell you…when you look at growing up under a microscope, it’s pretty terrifying. This idea that…even when we look back at our own lives…when you’re out there on limb, when we got into situations that were hard, when we made mistakes, when we tripped up, there were consequences and that’s where you learn and grow. 

social media and parenting

I think the idea of parenting with the end in mind…that when they are turn eighteen, they will go out and have unfettered access to everything we’re scared about as parents. So this idea…Deprivation, I think, is not a good strategy. But I think that we need to kind of realize our own bias for control, realize the unparalleled insight that we have now, that we didn’t have before, and use that to offset….you know, there’s some serious stuff out there; some serious stuff could happen. There are things where we don’t know if the influence is good or bad. And there are some things we definitely know are bad. And we can’t protect them from everything. I do think that understanding technology and creating meaningfully boundaries…like my daughter doesn’t a phone. She’s eleven. She uses my phone a lot. She has an understanding that her mom and I have got all of her accounts, so sometimes we’ll drop in and look at what’s going in. When we see things, we’re gonna talk about it. But I don’t want to fall into the temptation to try to control everything. I want to keep an eye on it and then use things as teaching opportunities when they come up. And parent towards coaching them in how these interactions made them feel, what should they have done, what do they wish they would have done better. When they get to be young adults, they should be savvy. They should know what’s happening; know how to avoid the dangers

...when we have this all power and control as parents amplified by the technology, it requires a lot more wisdom to know when to apply it. And I think it demands more of us as parents to be in community...

Taz: I appreciate the angle you took in answering this question. Yeah, thinking about how trackable this all is. And how alluring it could be to control…and how that would impact a child to be under the microscope like you said. I love that point that growth usually happens at the edge…when we’re taking risks, when we make a mistake and learn from the consequences.

Jeff: I think it’s really hard for parents. I mean, just personally to watch your child…and you can see they’re getting ready to step off the cliff. That’s where the judgment comes in. You always want to balance as a parent. You want the consequences to be enough that they learn. But you don’t want the consequences to be so great that it breaks their lives. I’m a lot more controlling about when it comes to looking both ways before you cross the street because you only get one mistake. You know, versus learning how to cook or something like that. It’s hard not to correct them every time they’re doing something that you know will lead them to a bad outcome. But you gotta let them run; let them enjoy; let them make mistakes; let them learn. Those are two really extreme examples of really drastic consequences versus almost non-existent. 

I think it’s interesting that working with technology as much as I do as a practitioner, and then also as a manager and as an executive and as a parent…I do think the hardest parts are still the human parts.

Taz: But they are illustrative. And your comment about this illusion of control that any parent has [is illustrative, too]…Your kid is a whole other person. (Laughs).

Jeff: I think it’s really difficult as parents….This requires growth for us as parents. I think as parents we would probably tend to squelch the most promising learning opportunities our kids ever have if we could because they are gonna hurt so much. 

So, if you can see those things coming…do you step in and rob the kid of the opportunity to grow? How do you judge how much difficulty they’re ready for? And I think the kind of wisdom and introspective…and the community it takes….I’ve found so much out of talking with older parents. Like, “Okay, this thing I’m so worried about, that I’m freaking out about - not that big of deal.” You can roll with this one and it’s fine. Versus “This is a thing I’m not really worried about…Oh, that doesn’t go well if you don’t address it.” Yeah, in generalities…but this idea that when we have this all power and control as parents amplified by the technology, it requires a lot more wisdom to know when to apply it. And I think it demands more of us as parents to be in community with people with more experience. The hardest thing about parenting is not projecting your self onto your child and making your child’s issues your issues. And as with everything else, technology just amplifies the tendency. 

Taz: And that reminds of what you were saying before about the importance of awareness; having the dialogue around it; some kind of reflective functioning…not to fall into something. 

Jeff: I wouldn’t want to minimize the real, significant dangers online…I mean, predators, child trafficking. I wouldn’t ever want to be heard saying, “Yeah, yeah, let them go online. It’ll be fine if they get solicited but they’ll learn from it.” That’s not at all what I’m saying. But I do think out of fear of that, we can really go in and…so, we can either say “This is uncontrollable” and let them run into dangers that we should protect them from; let them encounter things they’re not mature enough to metabolize or we say “Oh, we have all these controls and all these dangers, let’s clamp it all down.” I think that’s equally detrimental. So, that it is really a matter of finding that balance and being aware on both sides. There’s a strong draw to do one or either. I think you mess up as a parent if you do either of the extremes. 

...technology can be a microscope or a magnifying glass that points back to the human condition and what it means to be human and what it means to relate to one another....when we see a technological problem, I think you can often and maybe always go one step deeper, and say ‘What is that telling us about ourselves? What does that tell us about what we want? What we need? How we relate?’

Taz: Well, I want to be conscious of time, but do you have any closing thoughts or things that you’d want to say? Anything coming to mind from the conversation, anything that makes you think like, “Oh, I want to add this point?”

Jeff: (Laughs) Thank you for listening.

Taz: I feel like so much has come up! (Laughs). Some of the reason that we like to interview people in different fields is that it’s so generative. Hopefully! And also for our community and for people who find our blog. 

Jeff: I mean…I think it’s interesting that working with technology as much as I do as a practitioner, and then also as a manager and as an executive and as a parent…I do think the hardest parts are still the human parts. I laugh, you know, I can talk to my phone and it can write down what I say, which is this close to a miracle…and it does it so well now…it’s amazing. I can tell it “Open this app. Or open that app.” Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Which is interesting. I use Android. Maybe Apple has got this one. But what’s interesting about that is that it’s an integration problem. So, we’ve solved this massively difficult computer science problem of listening to speech and turning it into writing. Really difficult. 

But integration is in the end…it’s the way that technology built by different groups of people can talk to each other. So, when I have this piece of technology and I want it to work with this other piece of technology and it doesn’t work, it’s because the people who built it had different ideas, they had different ways to approaching things, and they didn’t communicate well. They interpreted a standard in a different way. So, the idea that even inside your phone as you’re trying to use it - the things that it struggles with are a reflection of what’s so hard about being in a relationship; working together. I always laugh. I’ve run IT project after IT project - the hardest part is always the communication. How do I help people hear about what is happening? How do we solicit feedback? How are we responsive? How are we working together? (Laughs). You see that pattern over and over again. If anything technology can be a microscope or a magnifying glass that points back to the human condition and what it means to be human and what it means to relate to one another. I think I would always encourage us…when we see a technological problem, I think you can often and maybe always go one step deeper, and say “What is that telling us about ourselves? What does that tell us about what we want? What we need? How we relate?” And I think it can be very enlightening…and it becomes an opportunity to reflect on what our values are and how we want to be different in the world. And an opportunity to act on that in a very concrete way. I mean, it’s part of what I love about technology. 

Taz: Yeah, it almost sounds like a mirror then.

Jeff: Uh huh, it’s not a perfect mirror, but it’s a very informative one.

Taz: I think I want to end on those points. Wow, yeah, it’s such a reflective relationship…technology and humans. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jeff. I really appreciate your time. It’s been very illuminating…this conversation has been illuminating. 

Jeff: Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to do it. Thanks for taking the time yourself. I really appreciate it. 


Jeff Harwell is Chief Technology Officer at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, and a PhD candidate in Information Systems and Technology at Claremont Graduate University. He has worked in the field of information systems and technology for over 15 years and has a background in Engineering Physics.


Taz Morgan, MA, is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Gabrielle Taylor, PhD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

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In Love and In Good Humor

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In Love and In Good Humor

It wasn’t until the 1680s that the word humor began to refer to something amusing or comic. I learned of this by venturing down an Internet rabbit hole

When we say that we’re looking for a love interest with a sense of humor, I think we’re wondering: Can this person roll with the punches of life? Can they respect their own eccentricities and will they accept and love my eccentricities?

When I realized that humor was the theme marking the conclusion of our Humans of MHT interview series, I was delighted by the linguistic serendipity - humor and humanness. I assumed that the two words were etymologically linked. However, when I did a cursory Google search, I found evidence to the contrary. Humor comes from the Latin words “humere” (to be moist) and “humor” (liquid, moistness). Human, on the other hand, is borrowed from the Latin words “homo” (man, human) and “humanus” (of or belonging to man, human, humane). 

No close historical relation after all. 

But it didn’t matter. I was newly delighted by dangling carrots — and it was all about humor as a word for state of mind or mood, not as a reference to something funny. I had stumbled upon an article about humorism - a system of medicine, adopted by ancient Greek and Roman physicians and philosophers, that attributes particular mental states to an excess or deficiency of four distinct bodily fluids in a person, known as humors. In this system, both mental and physical health are dependent on a balance of four primary humors: bile, black bile, phlegm, and blood, and therefore, a person could have a melancholic, bilious, phlegmatic or sanguine temperament. My initial thought was: Huh — there’s something very apropos about this connection because any comedian worth their salt has a zinger about our most embarrassing human secretions.

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As I dug deeper, I read that language evolved from speaking of temperament (He’s in ill-humor/She’s in good humor) to “humoring” someone’s mood or whim, and then finally referring to something that could alter someone’s mood by making them laugh. In the 17th century, humor then became synonymous with “imbalance" and "eccentricity of character.” I had an aha moment -- that was the key between humor and humanness! No need for these threads to be linked by the same root word. They were already inextricably tied together in my understanding of a lasting partnership, but I didn't have the turn of phrase to more fully articulate it until my eyes landed on eccentricity of character. What clicked was....When I think about someone’s humanness, I reflect on their particularities, foibles, oddities, or difference. The prickly bits and the rough edges are the most human. In relationship, it is the ability to negotiate eccentricities rather than strive for sameness or perfect complementarity that I believe provides sturdiness to weather the storms of life together.

According to eHarmony, “Almost every person has ‘sense of humor’ high on the list of things they want in a partner.” That rings emotionally true — that’s certainly what my people in my personal life value in their significant others. And it’s something that I cherish in my partner. This conviction was also declared in Lauren Ziel's interview with comedy producer Andi Porter, in which Porter stated “I would have a sack of potatoes as a partner as long as they had a great sense of humor.”  When we say that we’re looking for a love interest with a sense of humor, I think we’re wondering: Can this person roll with the punches of life? Can they respect their own eccentricities and will they accept and love my eccentricities? And for me, specifically, can they humor my searching for things equally inane and profound online? 


Taz MorganMA, is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Gabrielle Taylor, PhD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

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Women of Style: Louise Brooks

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Women of Style: Louise Brooks

A well dressed woman, even though her purse is painfully empty, can conquer the world.
— Louise Brooks

I can’t exactly recall when I developed my penchant for all things 1920s, but I know that falling in love with silent movies in my late teens sealed the deal. A big part of the charm was Louise Brooks. I adored her look - bobbed haircut (also described as a black helmet), enigmatic expressions, dark eyes, and elegant dresses. And like any good fan, I wanted to know everything about her. What I found (and rediscovered in embodying her for this project) was a multifaceted woman and a feminist ahead of her time.

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Never really considered a major star in her day, Brooks is now most famous for her lead roles in Pandora’s Box (1929) and Diary of a Lost Girl (1929). In these films, Brooks epitomized the flapper style on screen. This style was emblematic of the “New Woman” of the 1920s that pushed gender roles and shed the restrictive laces, corsets, and hoops that dominated women’s fashion at the time. 

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Not only was Brooks radical in dress, but she was unafraid to cross powerful men in Hollywood - turning down deals with major studios to live and work in Germany. Moreover, her acting approach and choice of projects marked a trailblazer spirit. Brooks was a pioneer of naturalistic acting, predating Marlon Brando and James Dean by decades. Her portrayal of female sexuality on screen also pushed boundaries. In Pandora’s Box, she played one of cinema’s first bisexual characters. Off-screen, she had multiple romances with directors and co-stars, Charlie Chaplin and supposedly Greta Garbo included. 

By the time Brooks was in her mid-twenties, her movie career was already over. Despite her youth while active in front of the camera, she defied the stereotype of the naïve ingenue. Rather, she was noted for her fierce intelligence, which I so respect. She reportedly read the work of Schopenhauer on set (this tidbit gets me chuckling). Her 1982 memoir Lulu in Hollywood also revealed a mind and voice that could understand and articulate the language of film on par with the most celebrated critics.

I thoroughly admire her different-ness and complicated nature. A trailblazer. An underdog. A sex symbol. An intellectual. A style icon. A woman comprised of many parts - both messily human and otherworldly in her own way. Henri Langlois, one of the founders of the La Cinémathèque française, famously said, "There is no Garbo, there is no Dietrich, there is only Louise Brooks.” I couldn’t agree more.


HERE'S HOW YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN DRESSEMBER WITH US:

Give! Visit our Dressember page and make a donation. It's that simple and no sum is too small. Truly.

Follow! Be sure to follow us on Instagram and our blog throughout the month of December. 

Share!  Help us spread the word. You can do this by sharing our social media posts or links to our Dressember fundraising page.


Taz MorganMA, is a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Vanessa Spooner, PsyD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

Click here to learn more about our Los Angeles psychotherapy services.

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Why We Dressember

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Why We Dressember

This is a collaborative piece from MHT therapists Taz Morgan and Maria Elena Marquez. They attended the Dressember 2017 Kickoff Party on Thursday, November 30 at the Unique Space in Downtown LA. 


Last week we ventured to the Arts District to attend the Official Dressember Kickoff Party. We weren’t sure what to expect from the event but whatever fantasies we may have had were completely blown out of the water. It was such an impressive and inspiring night of style, generosity and community — all tenets of The Dressember Foundation

Maria Elena admiring some of the styles from the 2017 Dressember Collection. 

Maria Elena admiring some of the styles from the 2017 Dressember Collection. 

After making a beeline to the food truck, we took in all that the activity of the party - a photo booth, a gingerbread cookie decorating station, a craft table, and a display of The 2017 Dressember Dress Collection, designed by advocates and ethically made by Elegantees. Of note, Elegantees employs survivors of human trafficking in Nepal. 

An hour into the party, the emcees (two Dressember board members) took the stage and introduced Dressember founder Blythe Hill. Not only did Blythe speak about the issue of human trafficking and why she is committed to giving grants to non-profits that strive to put an end to violent oppression but she shared how her own experience of sexual trauma has impacted her life. The vulnerability with which she spoke about the burden of shame was palpable. Moreover, we resonated with Blythe's declaration that going to therapy had helped her regain a sense of resiliency and strength, which in turn, propelled her to make a more expansive mark on the world. Furthermore, she talked about a fire being ignited in her soul at the age of 19 to put an end to sex trafficking. Her passionate spirit has indeed fueled the Dressember movement - and in that moment, we both felt a resounding sense of urgency in our own bellies and turned to look at each other - silently acknowledging that we were experiencing something special with this kind of truth-telling. 

Blythe Hill, Founder and CEO of Dressember. 

Blythe Hill, Founder and CEO of Dressember. 

Next up on the stage were advocates from A21 and International Justice Mission (IJM), two major Dressember partner organizations. The A21 representative told a story about a trafficking survivor who had been a typical teenage girl in Bulgaria. One day this young woman went out on a mid-day coffee date with a young man. She got up to use the bathroom and while she was away from the table, he drugged her drink. The next thing she knew she was strapped to a bed in Greece. The advocate went on to highlight this woman's astounding recovery of hope and freedom. The very charismatic representative from IJM spoke about her work in rescuing children from exploitation in the Philippines. She, too, mentioned the importance of mental health services for survivors. Finally, she got everyone in the room to move to a dance that survivors from a rescue in Manila created. 

Towards the end of the night, the emcees presented guests with a challenge to raise enough money for two rescue missions. Witnessing people lining up to make a donations to the cause was heart-warming and just what we needed to ramp up even more enthusiasm about our team fundraising campaign this year.


The Dressember Foundation is an anti-trafficking nonprofit organization with an annual campaign in December where people take on the challenge of wearing either a dress or a tie every day of the month as a way to raise awareness and money for anti-trafficking work.

For more information, we recommend checking them on Instagram or Facebook in addition to visiting their official website


HERE'S HOW YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN DRESSEMBER WITH US:

Give! Visit our Dressember page and make a donation. It's that simple and no sum is too small. Truly.

Follow! Be sure to follow us on Instagram and our blog throughout the month of December. 

Share!  Help us spread the word. You can do this by sharing our social media posts or links to our Dressember fundraising page.


Dressember Party 01.jpg

Taz MorganMA, is a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Vanessa Spooner, PsyD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

Maria Elena Marquez, MA, is a bilingual Spanish-English Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, IMF #103470, working under the supervision of Michelle Harwell, PsyD, LMFT.  As an art therapist, Maria is passionate about helping clients unravel complex cultural beliefs and family pressures through the use of expressive art.

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Playing on the Road

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Playing on the Road

Although the most trying, painful times in my life each have been marked by their own constellation of circumstances, I can safely surmise that a lack of play and imagination lied at the core. In those periods, I experienced my thoughts and emotions as facts etched in stone. Like a sentence to prison without parole. In the throes of such literalism, there was no wiggle room to consider other options. Conversely, when I approach the world with a playful stance, the mundane can turn into the sacred. Anxiety can transform into creativity. And fear can soften into a sense of wonder. 

...play is not about fun or pleasure per se. Instead, its essence is characterized by social connection and active engagement with the present.

Given this stark contrast between life with and without play, one might think that I would have figured out a way to bottle up this magical elixir. And yet this frame of mind remains so darn elusive to me. I don’t think it means that I’m too much of a stick-in-the-mud (although haters may beg to differ!). Rather, I think play is play precisely because it is difficult to pin down. It has an emergent quality. It is ephemeral, mercurial even, and can not happen on demand. It is a frame of mind that arises in the sweet spot where safety and novelty intersect. And this brings me to...

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Road trips! 

Yes, road trips, for me, are fertile ground for play. On such a journey, I’m in the familiar shell of my own car and often with a travel companion who elicits a sense of belonging. I can let my guard down. I also have a sense of agency (unlike with air travel) - my input on temperature, music selection, or when to stop for a break impacts the space. Moreover, I am moving and the terrain is constantly changing - stimulating and out of the ordinary but not overwhelming. Within this flow state, in-between-ness is tolerable. I may be anticipating arrival at a particular destination, and yet I truly revel in the pit stops at little diners off the interstate, the conversations that can unfold when there’s little distraction, or the way that time stands still when simply looking out the window. Possibility is in the air, and I'm ready for exploration. In this line of thought, play is not about fun or pleasure per se. Instead, its essence is characterized by social connection and active engagement with the present.

This all said, the salve to the next big obstacle may not be to literally hit the open road, but rather to get curious about what’s obscuring my imaginative capacity. Or as poet David Whyte says, “Put down the weight of your aloneness and ease into the conversation. The kettle is singing even as it pours you a drink….Everything is waiting for you.” 


Taz MorganMA, is a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Vanessa Spooner, PsyD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

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Humans of MHT: An Interview with Lauren Ziel, Registered Associate CSW

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Humans of MHT: An Interview with Lauren Ziel, Registered Associate CSW

This is the second interview in our series "The Humans of MHT." I was delighted to spend time with Lauren Ziel, Associate Social Worker Intern. Lauren's curiosity about her own internal process lead us through an invigorating journey at the intersections of vulnerability, mindfulness, and the wisdom of the body. She is equal parts scientist, fitness guru, and empath - and she's unafraid to be silly and to speak truthfully about not-knowing.

To view (or read) the first interview in this series, go here

- Taz Morgan, MFT Intern

Taz: I’m here with with Lauren Ziel. I’m excited about getting to know you better, Lauren. I guess to start with…what does humanness mean to you?

Lauren: You know, when I think of humanness, I think of this idea of this eternal hope mixed with a lot of fallibility. A lot of pain, a lot of suffering, a lot of this capacity to self-preserve. And there’s a lot of ways that we self-preserve. Sometimes they benefit us at one point in our lives and then they no longer benefit us later on. The human condition is the depths and dark and deeply troubling things we can experience combined with this ability to overcome...maybe with a little help sometimes to overcome. 

There’s this joke, and I don’t know if you’ve heard it. But when you’re in school, maybe undergraduate or in your master’s level work or so on, where the joke is that therapists are all crazy, and they’re taking these classes to figure out themselves and to figure out their experiences. And I think there is some truth to that. I think that our inherent curiosity about ourselves and how our brain ticks, how our heart beats, all of that definitely plays into…at least, I’ve used it as a way to connect to other people. 

T: Your point about…this…well, I think of it as this Wounded Healer. Because of my background that I have…we talk about archetypes. This archetype of the Wounded Healer. And how we use our deepest wounds to be compassionate; to feel into what maybe the people we’re working with are feeling. 

L: Absolutely. What I think is so great about this project is, you know, we are not this all-knowing entity sitting across the room from you. There’s a lot that I don’t about you - the person sitting across from me - and there’s a lot I’m still learning about myself, this world and my place in it, your place in it, and how we’re coming together in this room in this weird situation where it seems kinda contrived, but it’s really, potentially a vehicle and a space for tremendous vulnerability, but also safeness in that vulnerability. 

There’s a strange way in working with my clients that make me feel accountable; that make me remember how much work it takes to figure out yourself. And it’s a motivation for me, honestly. Yeah, I think that’s the really cool part about doing what we do, or being in profession where you’re helping people on such a visceral level, on an emotional level…is it changes you. You learn so much. 

T: Yeah, you’re speaking to how it can be transformative for you as the therapist…that you’re being impacted in some way by sitting with this person or working with them. Yeah, that it feeds something in you, not in a way that is impeding the work…but it’s…I’m forgetting the quote…something that Carl Jung says that it’s alchemical. That the two people are in are this space and they’re both gonna be transformed somehow. It’s not just about the client changing. I really like that, and that seems to be what you’re speaking about.

L: Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like I need to find the quote now, but yeah (laughs), absolutely. I think that the more I can bring myself to the table - my humanness, my fallibility, in a mindful and constructive manner - but the more that I can show up being a human...being…like I don’t know sometimes. I’ll tell you when I don’t know. I might feel a little silly and wish I that actually did know the answer. I want, in way to model, to model the vulnerability, and model it so that it’s okay.

T: You’ve talked a lot, I think, about how humanness shows up in your work as a therapist. I want to talk more about what you chose as your passion that represents your humanness. Even the phrase that you chose “movement is medicine” — I thought that it would be “fitness.” Say more about this idea of movement is medicine, and how it’s meaningful to you. 

L: I think I have to start that with my own experience...in that, when I physically move, when I exert myself, when my heart rate is up, my respiration is up. Again this is how I do it. Some people would hate doing that, and I get it. When I’m sweating and exerting, and I’m fully engaged in what my body is doing in that moment….and I can feel the strike of my foot against the concrete… when I can feel how I roll my fingers over a dumbbell or a barbell as I move it - it’s really, honestly, a practice of mindfulness for me. It’s a practice of being in the present moment. There’s a degree of like a flow state where it almost just happening and there’s not a lot of thinking about. It parallels with this incredible attunement with your physical being. And it’s very grounding for me. It allows me to take my energy…because I can tend to be very heady and all up in my head and very light — pretty anxious. And using my body to ground me is very effective for me. It calms me down. It provides my brain with a little bit of clarity and being in that moment. 

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L: I have just found in particular, running, weight-lighting, yoga - those are the things that tend to do it for me. I have discovered dancing, which I don’t know that I’m very good at, but I actually really like it. Not yet, at least, I’m not putting it off the table (laughs). You know when you’re a kid and you go climb a tree because there’s a tree there and that’s what you do? Or when your favorite song comes on and you scream at the top of your lungs in your room or in the shower?  I feel like your body, moving your body in a way that expresses feeling, and you not having to understand exactly why that is…is so freeing. 

T: Yeah, honoring the wisdom of your body.

L: Yeah, exactly, yes, beautiful way of putting. That’s perfect. It’s my me time. It really is. It’s my me time. If I can help someone find a little bit of that - it’s great. When I start to see someone really come into their body, really come into what their body is capable of, and listening to that intuition…your physical being holds so much and it can also let go of so much. 

And at the same time, I think that the body can also….just like what we talked about at the beginning…there are ways that we have learned to protect ourselves, right? The body does that, too. The body holds onto to certain things. 

T: My shoulders will just be up here sometimes (shrugging and laughing).

L: Me too. I’m a constant shoulder-shrugging. It’s like someone just scared me all the time. I totally get that (laughing). There’s a lot of really awesome research about where tension is held in the body and where certain physical maladies are coming up or somatic presentations of psychological issues. There’s so much research out there now.

T:  To incorporate the somatic piece or the body — it’s widening the scope of how we look at what it means to be human.

L:  What works for me one day won’t necessarily work for me the next. And that’s okay. It comes back to learning more about one’s self and the motivations we have, the needs and the drives that are bringing us to these behaviors is what is so interesting. And the work is never really finished at the end of the day. 

This is something that went over in my yoga teaching training - the more that we try to keep things from changing, the less satisfied we are with the situations or ourselves because change is natural. And learning to be okay with the ambiguity, the scariness, and the discomfort is probably the biggest skill that one can develop for themselves. And it’s hard. It’s work that keeps going.

T: It’s such a challenge, I think, to accept one’s own rhythm, right? The opposite of being human, in my view, is being a robot where you would have the same sensations everyday. You’re talking about having a lot of acceptance or compassion for each day being different or one day something works…there’s this nuance and complexity. And being in the not-knowing.

L: And then taking that…and having a frame of mind where…one could look at that and find it terrifying. I get that, yeah it’s terrifying but it’s also…if you put your science cap on and have this curiosity about yourself about how you function in the world and why you function in the world, then it’s almost like this cool on-going experiment you have with yourself. Figuring out all the variables.

Thank you, Taz. This was great.

T: Thank you, Lauren. It was so nice to get to know you, and hear your thoughts a little bit.

L: Samesies.


Lauren Ziel, MSW is a Registered Associate Clinical Social Worker, ASW #76483, working under the supervision of Vanessa Spooner, PsyD. Through the use of movement and mindfulness, Lauren develops specialized treatment for anxiety, depression, eating disorders, challenges in life-stage transitions, relational difficulties, and identity/intrapersonal development.


Taz Morgan, MA, is a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Vanessa Spooner, PsyD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

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