Viewing entries tagged
human connection

Opening Ourselves to Connectivity: An Interview with Kate Maher, LMFT

August 3, 2022

For our ‘Humans of MHT” series this month, we are featuring an interview between Kate Maher, LMFT, and Jennifer Jackson, MSW. In this interview, Jennifer speaks with Kate about her perspective of humanness and how that plays out in her work as a clinician. Kate shares about the necessity of embracing connectivity amid struggles and situations that lead to grief, sadness, and confusion.

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Below you will find the interview transcript.

Jennifer Jackson: Hi, Kate.

Kate Maher: Hi, Jennifer.

JJ: Good to see you.

KM: You too. I'm looking forward to this.

JJ: So today we get to talk about some things about humanness and what that means to us. But first…We started about the same time, about a year ago.

KM: Yeah, we did. We’re coming up on a year anniversary. So kind of growing together in this. All those growing pains.

JJ: So today I thought maybe I could share what the topics are and then you can kind of start wherever you are inspired. Yeah?

KM: Love it.

JJ: So the question I have for you is what humanness means to you? How does humanness show up in your work as a clinician? And what poem have you read that speaks to you currently and why?

KM: I think I'll start with part three because it's been kind of marinating on this topic since knowing that we were going to be able to hang out today and explore this. And it's not a poem that I've read recently, but it is a poem that I hold very close to my heart. It's called “Individuation” by Avah Pevlor Johnson. And it is written by Avah Pevlor Johnson as the mother of a playwright, Cindy Lou Johnson, who wrote this play called Brilliant Traces. And so at the beginning of the play is this poem. And within the play, without going into the whole story, it's the coming together of two very scarred, grieving souls. Two people come together in this cabin in the middle of a blizzard, in the middle of the wilderness of Alaska. And they are one of them running away from life, and the other one is hiding from life. And throughout the play, you're brought together through their connectiveness and essentially movement towards healing and growth together as these two complete strangers. So that is the crux of the play's narrative, Brilliant Traces. And the poem is, like I said, written by the mother of the playwright. And I'll just read the poem. It starts with,

If I must be wrung through the paradox,
broken into wholeness,
wrung me around the moon;
pelt me with particles from the dark side
Fling me into space;
hide me in a black hole.
Let me dance with devils on dead stars.
Let my scars lead brilliant traces,
For my highborn soul seeks its hell -
in high places.

And the phrase let my scars leave brilliant traces really resonates with me. And Brilliant Traces is the title of the play. I've been carrying that with me since college when I actually first saw this play. And as you know, but others might not, my first life was as an actor and a performer and a thespian and a theater nerd where I feel my immediate hunger for understanding the human condition got to be totally explored and satiated through play and story and connectivity and making meaning, essentially, of our individual personal traumas and also the stories and traumas of those before us. When I think back to classical theater and these stories that keep being told repeatedly, we get to relive as performers.

So all in a roundabout way of how the poem continues to speak to me in the here and now as I've arrived as becoming a therapist and moving into a different field. Above all, I feel it just really speaks to seeking a higher ground when we are in the throes of immense turmoil and confusion and struggle and that it's not so much just about learning how to deal with the struggle or just to survive the struggle, it's also about finding the portals in the midst of the struggle where we get to connect with beauty and grace and empathy and connectivity. So that last line of the poem, for my high born soul seeks its hell in high places. If I must be thrown into this world, let me do it with just fierce abandon and bravery. And if I'm going to be flung around, which I feel like we all can relate to the past two and a half years of just dealing with unknown and unpredictability and very unprecedented times, that let's just go for it and keep opening ourselves up to the unknown, which I imagine is what that poem kind of invokes.

“It’s not so much just about learning how to deal with the struggle or just to survive the struggle, it’s also about finding the portals in the midst of the struggle where we get to connect with beauty and grace and empathy and connectivity.”

— Kate Maher, LMFT

Yeah, so multiple layers there. And like I said, the play itself is one of my favorite plays. It's the story of how people rise above and make meaning of their sadness and grief. And I wholeheartedly feel like that's not possible without connectivity.

So the second part of the question around how I find this humanness showing up in our clinical work is through connectivity and through the meeting of minds and the meeting of experiences together. And it's been such an incredible journey moving away from being a performer on stage and really moving into a really unique sacred space where somebody comes in and sits in front of you and shares themselves with themselves. And we get to as therapists, we get to be along that journey too. We get to be wrung through that paradox too. I think that's a real gift and privilege and challenge and brings me back to that connectivity that I think is so powerfully necessary in humanness.

JJ: Absolutely. That's such a beautiful way to look at it.

KM: Thanks. I wish I wrote it. It doesn't seem to die away. I never seem to outgrow it.

JJ: Each phase of life I would imagine you’d able to come back to it and find ways to connect new meaning.

KM: Absolutely. That's the hope. Yeah. And I'm trying to think of anything else that comes together when I think of what humanness means to me. And I keep trying for the journey towards curiosity. Unfortunately, I'm a little more organized at wanting answers, which I think is part of humanness. But there's a growing edge within me that I continue to try to search with the perspective of just being curious. And that the edge. You never actually arrive to the cliff. It just keeps going and going, you know, with curiosity around why we are feeling, how we are feeling, what has carved into us, what has left scars and brilliant traces and how those keep expanding within ourselves. Yeah, I think that's kind of where I landed so far.

“Unfortunately, I’m a little more organized at wanting answers, but there’s a growing edge within me that I continue to try to search with the perspective of just being curious. And that is the edge. You never actually arrive at the cliff. It just keeps going and going, you know, with curiosity around asking why we are feeling, how we are feeling, what has carved into us, what has left scars and brilliant traces, and how those keep expanding within us. ”

— Kate Maher

I guess I'm thinking more too, around how it shows up in clinical work when I find myself wanting to arrive at answers in the room with clients, probably so much so because I imagine it would provide comfort and peace. And that's my own also growing edge as a therapist, that really there's healing to be made and connection to be fostered without answers.

JJ: And I would imagine as a performer, that curiosity about humanity and the depth is just such a part of you.

KM: Yes. Especially with theater. I never really crossed over into the film and TV where it felt like very solidified. There was a cut print. It was theater, it was alive every night. You didn't know who was going to drop what. You didn't know if a light was going to go out. You didn't know it was this living, breathing organism that only was going to exist at one time. And if you weren't at that right moment, at that right theater seat, in the right perspective view of the actors on stage, you were never going to have the same performance ever again. And you can never retrieve it again. It just passes by and you take with it what you can. So, yeah, I think that it's something that is ever reaching the targets, always moving, never arrived at one answer or one way.

JJ: Always seeking, always curious. That's kind of a beautiful way to leave that. Always curiosity, the scars leave traces, and and what we make of it, the meaning. I love your idea of connectedness with humanity. And thank you so much for sharing all of that.

KM: Thank you for asking those questions, Jennifer.

Kate Maher, LMFT, provides a culturally sensitive and affirmative space for individuals and couples in all stages of life. She believes that engaging in our own healing work can provide a new state of consciousness for effective change and growth. Kate believes in using an integrative approach tailored to her client’s needs and values their input in deciding how best to work together in the room. She also works creatively with dreams, symbols, and images that can help her clients tap into, as well as awaken, the inner wise parts of their psyche.

Jennifer Jackson, MSW, creates a compassionate, non-judgmental space to collaborate on client goals. With an integrative therapy approach, she fosters a connection where meaningful change can occur, allowing clients to live with more ease and to move forward in life empowered by strengths, both old and new. She approaches the work with cultural humility and an anti-oppressive framework that supports client intersectionality, particularly for those who identify as BIPOC, individuals in the LGBTQ+ community, women, and birthing people in all stages of their perinatal journey from preconception to postpartum.

The Laugh Machine

May 16, 2018

“While humor can build up or tear down, it’s fundamental value lies in the way it allows us to approach truth less directly, to come at it sideways but to come at it nonetheless. It’s a way of coping with the things that…need coping with. At its best, it unites us as we share a laugh over some aspect of being human.”

I remember my mother telling me a story about her younger sister growing up. Her sister was tying various strings to an old bottle and attaching a bunch of different objects to the other end of each string. When asked what she was doing, she explained that she was making a laugh machine. While the family was at first incredulous, simply watching her twirl her odd contraption had them all in stitches in the end. Why? It was so ridiculous! There was an irony in the fact that her prediction came true from those unlikely beginnings. My mother was still giggling 50-some years later.

What makes humor such an important part of our humanity? Fundamentally, all humor centers around truth. In slapstick, we highlight the ridiculous aspects of daily life. In a roast, we exaggerate selected features of a person to create a comic caricature. Wit often shows us a wry perspective on a situation. Sarcasm presents a critical truth mercilessly, Gallows humor transcends what is most grim in our human experience to point out irony or the absurd. Freudian humor, as Taz reminds us, carries the truth of our unconscious desires.

While humor can build up or tear down, it’s fundamental value lies in the way it allows us to approach truth less directly, to come at it sideways but to come at it nonetheless. It’s a way of coping with the things that…need coping with. At its best, it unites us as we share a laugh over some aspect of being human. Its playfulness pulls on a younger part of us. And isn’t it always children that overcome divisions that adults can’t seem to get around, simply by not seeing them in the first place? When we laugh together, we’re in touch with a part of us that can meet others in a place of youthful glee.

Personally, I love the way my kindergarten-age daughter laughs uproariously and uncontrollably when I crack a string of jokes about the inescapable truths of our digestive tracts. She can’t stop. She’s utterly helpless in the waves of laughter shaking her small body. Part of her will never outgrow her love of earthy humor. When she’s 16, perhaps we’ll find it awkward and difficult to connect in the tried and true fashion of adolescence. I’m sure I’ll be googling fart jokes and letting them rip.

Monica Green, Ph.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist, PSY27391, specializing in depression, anxiety, trauma, relationship issues and psychological aspects of chronic health conditions. She enjoys terrible puns.

Humans of MHT: An Interview with Abby Wambaugh

May 6, 2018

Maria Elena: Hey Abby—how are you?

Abby: I’m good, how are you?

ME: I’m good. So, I’m interviewing you today….what does humanness mean to you?

Abby: I’ve been thinking about this in anticipation of our talk today, and after hearing what everyone else has said…I just really want to think about what does humanness mean to me specifically. And as I was thinking about it, I saw that it has two meanings for me. One is that it’s a reminder of my own work with perfectionism and that I am a human…with flaws, with things that I’m working on, and with things that I want to do differently. In some ways, it allows me to have self-compassion - to remember my own humanness and come into contact with it. And I was also thinking part of humanness is resiliency for me…that we as humans are capable of handling much more than we think we can. There’s something really beautiful about the fact that we are both flawed and imperfect…and yet sometimes even stronger than we could imagine. So, I think some combination of this self-compassion and this resiliency is what humanness means to me.

ME: Wow, thank you so much for sharing. I feel inspired right now. So, you chose humor to represent your humanness. What does humor mean to you?

Abby: Humor has always been a way to connect with people…and in some ways a way to connect with myself. I remember when I was a kid… at the dinner table….I had this impression that I did of one of my teachers at school and my family use to request that I do the impression. And it would make everybody laugh. So, I have these really rich and vivid childhood memories of humor being a way that I could connect with people that I love and a way that I could let go of some of the stress that would carry throughout the day. And as an adult, it still continued to show up for me. I did a comedy standup set one time, and realized that I like to be more in the audience than the one up front, but it was part of this way of me engaging with humor and engaging with how much it takes a weight off of you. I think sometimes about some of the difficult things we talk about in the therapy room…and sometimes you just have to bring some humor in there. Some of the most amazing parts of sessions for me are the ones where you have these really intense moments and you also get to laugh with your client. And so I think that same type of connection and relief that humor brings is not only important to me as a human but it’s also really important to be as a therapist, and it’s something that I try to utilize a lot in the therapy room.

ME: Wow, have there been any shining moments as a clinician where you use your humor since you already said you use it clinically?

Abby: One moment that comes to mind for me was with a teenager that I used to work with who was particularly resistant to therapy, as most teenagers are (laughs). Who was really having trouble engaging with the things that she wanted to work on and with even what it meant to her to be in therapy. We started…I don’t even really remember how it started…but we started doing voices together. We would start our sessions with accents. We kinda had our “go-to” accents. Mine, because I’m from Texas originally…I like to do a good Southern accent. Sometimes we would switches into British accents. And we would have different accents that we would do. It was a way of breaking ice and way of us connecting at the beginning of the session to remind her that yes, I was her therapist, but I was also somebody sitting with her…wanting to connect with her and care about her and help make what was not going well for her better and help her find healing. That’s one silly thing that I don’t do all the time, but that definitely comes to mind for me when I think about how I’ve used humor in the past with clients.

ME: Wow, I really enjoy your spin on humor and how it helps facilitate hard conversations or even just helps to bring the human in the room. And say like, “Hey, we can laugh together, cry together, and heal together.”

Abby: What’s tricky about humor…I think I even mentioned this to you…is that it can definitely be a form of avoidance. I think we see that a lot as therapists…that someone will come in contact with a hard part of their story and will deflect with humor. I’ve definitely been guilty of that before, too. It’s one of those ways to care for self and to connect. But I’m also aware there’s a shadow side to humor…where you can use it to try to escape moments of intimacy with people. I try not to use humor in that way and I think It’s helpful to even be aware of that because it’s something that we all do sometimes.

ME: Yeah, yes. It was really great interviewing you. I feel a little more inspired. I feel a little looser to use humor in the room with clients instead of being so serious…us art therapist are just so serious. Just kidding. (laughs).

Abby: Yes, exactly. (Laughs).

ME: Well, thank you.

Abby: Thank you.

Abigail (Abby) Wambaugh, M.S., is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #94231, working under the professional supervision of Michelle Harwell, Psy.D., MFT 50732. She specializes in treating relationship difficulties, trauma, and sexual issues.

Maria Elena Marquez, MA, is a bilingual Spanish-English Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #103470, working under the supervision of Michelle Harwell, PsyD, LMFT. As an art therapist, Maria is passionate about helping clients unravel complex cultural beliefs and family pressures through the use of expressive art.

A New Taste of Home

April 23, 2018

For me, food holds memories of being grounded and content. Memories of dishes I’ve shared with people I love, dishes I’ve made for people I love, and lingering together with food and wine. These memories are places I come back to time and time again to feel at home.

When I was 18 years old, I moved away from my family and lived in England for a year working as a nanny. It was there that I remember first solidifying food as a grounding memory. The family I worked for regularly made chicken korma and it became a dish of comfort and calm for me. Something about the strong curry scent, basmati rice, and creamy yellow sauce shared with a family I cared about deeply eased my feelings of homesickness.

In doing some research, I found neuroscience affirms my experience of food as grounding. Eating food engages all of our senses, and senses are deeply tied to memories. Researchers have found that smell is often the strongest sense tied to memory, and if you add on the layers of all other senses experienced when eating food our brains are given multiple cues to recall a memory linked to a meal.

In a study done in 2007 by Johan Willander and Maria Larsson, researchers found that memories triggered by smell were also more emotional than those triggered by verbal information alone. This may be why even today, years after my time in England, I find myself ordering chicken korma when I feel a bit lost and alone, and after a few bites I find myself at home again.

“For me, food holds memories of being grounded and content...These memories are places I come back to time and time again to feel at home.”

Humans of MHT: An Interview with Dr. Vanessa Spooner

August 13, 2017

In this installment of our series "Humans of MHT," Laura talks with Vanessa about holding contradictions within ourselves, growing up in Maine, and the power of group psychotherapy.

Laura: Hello, my name is Laura MacRae-Serpa and I am a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern at Michelle Harwell Therapy. I am here with Dr. Vanessa Spooner, who is a Clinician and Clinical Supervisor at MHT, and we are going to have the pleasure of doing the fourth interview in the Humans of MHT series. So, I also wanted to mention that Dr. Spooner is the President of GPALA, which is the Group Psychotherapy Association of Los Angeles - Hello Vanessa!

Vanessa: Hi Laura - How are you?

L: I'm good, thank you. Are you ready to talk about feelings and thoughts about humanness?

V: Let's get started.

L: Okay, I'm interested in knowing what humanness means to you?

V: So, I was thinking about this this morning, as I was getting ready to head into work and for me, I think being human is being a contradiction - that we are so many polarities and opposites and we are constantly experiencing the tension between different thoughts or different feelings. And I think that as humans sometimes we get into trouble when we try to condense ourselves into just one thing - just one way of being - just one way of thinking - just one way of relating to people.

I think sometimes people think that they shouldn't have conflicting feelings or they shouldn't have different ways of relating to people but I really think that the richness that comes from being human is really found in that - in that contradiction. And I think the more we are open to that and the more that we embrace it - the more alive we feel and the happier we are. I think it's a part of our experience. I think some people really enjoy it and other people might feel stressed or trapped by that feeling - that nothing is simple - our thoughts and feelings can change about things -but we also enjoy it and seek it out.

For example, if a movie didn't have some tension in it and you didn't know what was going to happen then you wouldn't feel really riveted by it or if you're reading a book and a character seems pretty one-dimensional then you're not that interested. And people usually enjoy things when there's some ambiguity and there's many different meanings that could come from it - like a painting or poem - things that are so rich because they can have a lot of contradictions in them or they have a lot of different narratives in them. I think for me thinking about humanness that essence really speaks to me - the contradiction - the dialectics of it in that way - that you can have two opposing things happening at the same time and they don't cancel each other out and they can co-exist - like they don't completely contradict each other in that way.

L: Nicely said. True. During our photo shoot, you held up a cutting board of Maine, and I'm curious to know what that object means to you when you're thinking about your humanness?

V: So, I chose the cutting board because it's probably the easiest way to represent that I'm from Maine, otherwise I would have had to show a a state map or something. I chose Maine to represent my humanness because it kind of embodies exactly what I'm talking about- this dialectical opposition that we all embody. For me, a lot of times I have people who are surprised that I'm from Maine living out in California. It’s like - how opposite can you be? - you're coming from the other side of the country. I'm also from a very small town in Maine and there's a part of me that loves being from Maine and there’s part of me that hates being from Maine.

I think I chose that to represent my humanness because we all have mixed feelings about our homes. Mixed feelings about where we come from. We can have a sense of pride of where we're from. We can have a sense of shame, depending on our backgrounds. If I could have it my way then I would live in Maine and work in California. There are so many parts of Maine that feel more like me. It's slower and quieter. You're in nature more, the pace of life is slower and it just seems simple but not in a bad way. like People aren't rushing around trying to do different things. They're a little bit more interested in being. But LA also has a lot of things too. LA has a very vibrant community. LA has way more diversity than you find in Maine - diversity of thought, diversity of ethnicity, socioeconomic backgrounds, diversity of food and restaurants and things like that.

I find that I find myself kind of wondering where I might be in ten years and I honestly don't know. I don't know if I’ll be back in Maine or not but it reminds me of drawing than I did when I was a little kid. I think I was about six or seven and I drew this house that was in the woods on top of like a hill or mountain and I vividly remember making this drawing. I don’t know if I said anything to any of my family members but I know the story I told myself about the drawing was that I want to live in the country in this house in the middle of the woods and then I want to drive to the city and go to work. So, that was the ideal picture that I had in my head when I was a kid and I think I think I'm starting to ramble a little bit but that that's why I chose Maine to represent my humanness. I think there's a there's a tension in me from wanting to be kind of a rural country type girl from a small town and also wanting to be in LA - wanting to be in the intellectual community in Los Angeles as a therapist - so there's definitely the duality there. I think that represents my humanness well.

L: I will be interested to see where you are at in ten years as well after sharing that. See if you're here - maybe living out further and commuting or if you are actually back in Maine.

V: Well, we will see what happens.

L: How does your humanness come into the room with you as a therapist?

V: So, talking about duality - kind of oppositional forces - it almost sounds like I'm campaigning for a DBT therapy - dialectical behavioral therapy. I will say I'm not a DBT therapist but I think one of the reasons why DBT has helped so many people is because of exactly what I've been talking about- that we can have these conflicting ideas or different thoughts at the same time. They can coexist and we can start to understand from a outside perspective - our thoughts - how we feel about two contradictory things. I really like that viewpoint from DBT and I feel like that shows up a lot in my work with my clients - that it's okay to have opposing feelings. It's okay if feelings change. It's okay if your logic and your emotions don't agree with each other but how are you going to have a different dialogue with yourself? How are you going to come to terms with these contradictions and slowly over time make decisions that intuitively start to feel right? And to know that that's part of the process.

“I think being human is being a contradiction - that we are so many polarities and opposites and we are constantly experiencing the tension between different thoughts or different feelings. And I think that as humans sometimes we get into trouble when we try to condense ourselves into just one thing - just one way of being - just one way of thinking - just one way of relating to people.”

I think people feel like they're doing something wrong or they're stuck or something else isn't right if they're experiencing this tension. And like I was saying before about a movie, if you don't have tension, then the plot doesn't move along. So, if you don't have tension inside of you, then you don't have something to push against. I want clients to kind of embrace that tension and to know that it's not something they're going to overcome and then it's done. Like, if I go to therapy then I'll never have mixed feelings again. I'll always know what I want and it's done. It's not that you're overcoming once - each day you're overcoming this resistance to whatever it is that you might want to be doing. It's the conversation that you're having with yourself to kind of get yourself through to what you want.

It reminds me of this book called The War on Art. The author Steven Pressfield talks about resistance against creativity and he gives it a capital R and I like that because he's naming it. He's talking about how when you're trying to be a creative person, you need to have discipline and understand that resistance is always going to be there. You're not going to create just because you feel like creating-that happens sometimes but not most of the time. So, with my clients in therapy, I want them to kind of have the same feeling - that this resistance, this tension isn't going anywhere but if they are making peace with it inside of themselves then things don't have to be so stressful. There is going to be tension, there is still going to be friction but they're having an experience of themselves. They're not too critical of themselves. They're not shutting down differing points of view or different feelings inside of themselves. They're not limiting themselves to just relating to either other people, or the world, or themselves and just one standard or constricted way. So, I guess that's in a nutshell that’s how I see humanness in the room.

L: What are your thoughts on humanness in the group process or in group therapy? Do you see some similar tension - dynamics?

V: I think group therapy is humanness times a thousand. What I mean by that is that group therapy is inherently full of contradictions and opposition. Every time somebody talks in group, somebody else can't talk and there's always this tension…How much space do I take up in the group? What things are okay and not okay to say? What different types of relationships am I having in the group? I might be relating to someone as a sibling. I might be regulating someone else as a parent. I might want to relate to someone else in the group like a lover but I might be scared of showing that side of myself.

So, group, I think, is wonderful because you get all of these different points of view and there's no one truth to put in quotes- there isn't. I could say something in a therapy group whether I'm a client in the group or the therapist and everybody in the group could have a different reaction, and all of those reactions are valid in their own way, and all of those reactions could also be reflected upon and shifted in a certain way. So, I love group for that reason. I think being a group therapist you show your humanness a little bit more because just like a parent, you're not going to relate to everyone in the group in the same way. Whereas, if you're in individual therapy, your individual clients don't know - they don't know how you were in the room with the person before them or the person after them. They just know the dyad - the relationship that the two of you have. But when you're in a therapy group, you're kind of in the hot seat in a good way because everything that you say you have an audience. You have six or seven or eight people who are watching you and then they're also watching you interact with the other group members so, you're going to be you're going to be full of contradictions in that way.

“It’s okay if feelings change. It’s okay if your logic and your emotions don’t agree with each other but how are you going to have a different dialogue with yourself? How are you going to come to terms with these contradictions and slowly over time make decisions that intuitively start to feel right?”

I think the more I receive training in group therapy, the more I realize how comfortable I have to be with my humaneness in that way. I'm not going to be the same every week. The group is not going to be the same every week and that doesn't mean that anyone's doing anything wrong. It just means that it's a tension that we need to be aware of. I think another tension that comes up a lot in group, that doesn't quite come up in the same way individual therapy is the tension between wanting to be separate and the tension between wanting to be a part of. If you have a group, some group members are going to be very eager in the beginning to be like yes, we're a group and this is how we relate to each other. I understand you. Your story is similar to mine and we're forming into something that's a collective. Throughout the group, there will be periods of time when people don't want that and they want to separate. They're experiencing the tension of what if I don't want to be a part of this group? What if I lose a part of myself if I'm in this group? So maybe I don't talk, maybe I get mad at someone, maybe I don't show up one week… and I think that tension is very much present in our everyday lives and our communities and our relationships. How much we want to be connected? How much we want to be separate? You can definitely go there in individual therapy but I think it just comes up in a richer way in group therapy. You're really seeing it happened in the room whereas in individual therapy, it's the dyad and the client might be worried about getting too close to you. But I think it's a slightly different interpersonal experience when you're talking about the collective - when you're talking about a group instead of the dyad.

L: Thank you for your thoughts and sharing your humaneness and your experience. It's been wonderful listening to you and chatting with you.

V: Great, thank you so much for coming on today.

L: Bye Vanessa.

V: Bye.

Vanessa Spooner, PsyD, is a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in helping adults work through anxiety, depression, grief, and eating disorders. Dr. Spooner also has extensive training and experience in group therapy and is currently president of the Group Psychotherapy Association of Los Angeles (GPALA ).

Laura MacRae-Serpa, MFTI, CCLS has special interests in supporting children and families navigating adoption and the challenges of chronic illness.

Humans of MHT: An Interview with Lauren Ziel, Registered Associate CSW

June 25, 2017

This is the second interview in our series "The Humans of MHT." I was delighted to spend time with Lauren Ziel, Associate Social Worker Intern. Lauren's curiosity about her own internal process lead us through an invigorating journey at the intersections of vulnerability, mindfulness, and the wisdom of the body. She is equal parts scientist, fitness guru, and empath - and she's unafraid to be silly and to speak truthfully about not-knowing.

To view (or read) the first interview in this series, go here.

- Taz Morgan, MFT Intern

Taz: I’m here with with Lauren Ziel. I’m excited about getting to know you better, Lauren. I guess to start with…what does humanness mean to you?

Lauren: You know, when I think of humanness, I think of this idea of this eternal hope mixed with a lot of fallibility. A lot of pain, a lot of suffering, a lot of this capacity to self-preserve. And there’s a lot of ways that we self-preserve. Sometimes they benefit us at one point in our lives and then they no longer benefit us later on. The human condition is the depths and dark and deeply troubling things we can experience combined with this ability to overcome...maybe with a little help sometimes to overcome.

There’s this joke, and I don’t know if you’ve heard it. But when you’re in school, maybe undergraduate or in your master’s level work or so on, where the joke is that therapists are all crazy, and they’re taking these classes to figure out themselves and to figure out their experiences. And I think there is some truth to that. I think that our inherent curiosity about ourselves and how our brain ticks, how our heart beats, all of that definitely plays into…at least, I’ve used it as a way to connect to other people.

T: Your point about…this…well, I think of it as this Wounded Healer. Because of my background that I have…we talk about archetypes. This archetype of the Wounded Healer. And how we use our deepest wounds to be compassionate; to feel into what maybe the people we’re working with are feeling.

L: Absolutely. What I think is so great about this project is, you know, we are not this all-knowing entity sitting across the room from you. There’s a lot that I don’t about you - the person sitting across from me - and there’s a lot I’m still learning about myself, this world and my place in it, your place in it, and how we’re coming together in this room in this weird situation where it seems kinda contrived, but it’s really, potentially a vehicle and a space for tremendous vulnerability, but also safeness in that vulnerability.

There’s a strange way in working with my clients that make me feel accountable; that make me remember how much work it takes to figure out yourself. And it’s a motivation for me, honestly. Yeah, I think that’s the really cool part about doing what we do, or being in profession where you’re helping people on such a visceral level, on an emotional level…is it changes you. You learn so much.

T: Yeah, you’re speaking to how it can be transformative for you as the therapist…that you’re being impacted in some way by sitting with this person or working with them. Yeah, that it feeds something in you, not in a way that is impeding the work…but it’s…I’m forgetting the quote…something that Carl Jung says that it’s alchemical. That the two people are in are this space and they’re both gonna be transformed somehow. It’s not just about the client changing. I really like that, and that seems to be what you’re speaking about.

L: Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like I need to find the quote now, but yeah (laughs), absolutely. I think that the more I can bring myself to the table - my humanness, my fallibility, in a mindful and constructive manner - but the more that I can show up being a human...being…like I don’t know sometimes. I’ll tell you when I don’t know. I might feel a little silly and wish I that actually did know the answer. I want, in way to model, to model the vulnerability, and model it so that it’s okay.

T: You’ve talked a lot, I think, about how humanness shows up in your work as a therapist. I want to talk more about what you chose as your passion that represents your humanness. Even the phrase that you chose “movement is medicine” — I thought that it would be “fitness.” Say more about this idea of movement is medicine, and how it’s meaningful to you.

L: I think I have to start that with my own experience...in that, when I physically move, when I exert myself, when my heart rate is up, my respiration is up. Again this is how I do it. Some people would hate doing that, and I get it. When I’m sweating and exerting, and I’m fully engaged in what my body is doing in that moment….and I can feel the strike of my foot against the concrete… when I can feel how I roll my fingers over a dumbbell or a barbell as I move it - it’s really, honestly, a practice of mindfulness for me. It’s a practice of being in the present moment. There’s a degree of like a flow state where it almost just happening and there’s not a lot of thinking about. It parallels with this incredible attunement with your physical being. And it’s very grounding for me. It allows me to take my energy…because I can tend to be very heady and all up in my head and very light — pretty anxious. And using my body to ground me is very effective for me. It calms me down. It provides my brain with a little bit of clarity and being in that moment.

L: I have just found in particular, running, weight-lighting, yoga - those are the things that tend to do it for me. I have discovered dancing, which I don’t know that I’m very good at, but I actually really like it. Not yet, at least, I’m not putting it off the table (laughs). You know when you’re a kid and you go climb a tree because there’s a tree there and that’s what you do? Or when your favorite song comes on and you scream at the top of your lungs in your room or in the shower? I feel like your body, moving your body in a way that expresses feeling, and you not having to understand exactly why that is…is so freeing.

T: Yeah, honoring the wisdom of your body.

L: Yeah, exactly, yes, beautiful way of putting. That’s perfect. It’s my me time. It really is. It’s my me time. If I can help someone find a little bit of that - it’s great. When I start to see someone really come into their body, really come into what their body is capable of, and listening to that intuition…your physical being holds so much and it can also let go of so much.

And at the same time, I think that the body can also….just like what we talked about at the beginning…there are ways that we have learned to protect ourselves, right? The body does that, too. The body holds onto to certain things.

T: My shoulders will just be up here sometimes (shrugging and laughing).

L: Me too. I’m a constant shoulder-shrugging. It’s like someone just scared me all the time. I totally get that (laughing). There’s a lot of really awesome research about where tension is held in the body and where certain physical maladies are coming up or somatic presentations of psychological issues. There’s so much research out there now.

T: To incorporate the somatic piece or the body — it’s widening the scope of how we look at what it means to be human.

L: What works for me one day won’t necessarily work for me the next. And that’s okay. It comes back to learning more about one’s self and the motivations we have, the needs and the drives that are bringing us to these behaviors is what is so interesting. And the work is never really finished at the end of the day.

This is something that went over in my yoga teaching training - the more that we try to keep things from changing, the less satisfied we are with the situations or ourselves because change is natural. And learning to be okay with the ambiguity, the scariness, and the discomfort is probably the biggest skill that one can develop for themselves. And it’s hard. It’s work that keeps going.

T: It’s such a challenge, I think, to accept one’s own rhythm, right? The opposite of being human, in my view, is being a robot where you would have the same sensations everyday. You’re talking about having a lot of acceptance or compassion for each day being different or one day something works…there’s this nuance and complexity. And being in the not-knowing.

L: And then taking that…and having a frame of mind where…one could look at that and find it terrifying. I get that, yeah it’s terrifying but it’s also…if you put your science cap on and have this curiosity about yourself about how you function in the world and why you function in the world, then it’s almost like this cool on-going experiment you have with yourself. Figuring out all the variables.

Thank you, Taz. This was great.

T: Thank you, Lauren. It was so nice to get to know you, and hear your thoughts a little bit.

L: Samesies.

Lauren Ziel, MSW is a Registered Associate Clinical Social Worker, ASW #76483, working under the supervision of Vanessa Spooner, PsyD. Through the use of movement and mindfulness, Lauren develops specialized treatment for anxiety, depression, eating disorders, challenges in life-stage transitions, relational difficulties, and identity/intrapersonal development.

Taz Morgan, MA, is a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Vanessa Spooner, PsyD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples.

What Does It Mean?

June 9, 2017

What does it mean to be human?

There are so many ways to answer. Perhaps it has something to do with the ability humans have to create, to be relational, or to have a longing for significance, even eternity.

I think these answers have their merits and limits, but something I deeply believe is that to be human means to have incredible value -- and beyond that -- to be worth having that value recognized by another.

To acknowledge someone’s humanness is a weighty thing. It means I must act when that person is in need. It means I can no longer settle for simplistic, pat answers about their motivations. And it means I must respect their point of view and open myself up to being influenced by it. As soon as we recognize the humanity of another, we must recognize all that their humanity demands of us.

Extending this, when we recognize our own humanity, we must change the way we relate to ourselves. We often focus on the role we should fulfill or the impact we ought to have on the world around us. But this can lead to a valuing of self only to the extent that we are meeting those purposes. Our humanity means we have a value that goes beyond the function we serve. It’s a reason why listening to a piece of music, experiencing nature, or taking time for rest or joy is worthwhile.

Allison (Allie) Ramsey is a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, IMF #94391, working under the professional supervision of Michelle Harwell, PsyD, MFT 50732. Allie works with individuals on a broad range of issues, including anxiety, depression, relational challenges, faith integration, divorce, and aging.

Humans of MHT: An Interview with Allison (Allie) Ramsey, MFT Intern

May 14, 2017

We are launching a new series at our practice called “The Humans of MHT.” The idea being...healing happens in the context of real relationships, real people. Not perfect, unknown others, but people engaged in life and meaning-making just like you.

We'll be releasing one interview a month, so you can get a glimpse of the humans that sit in the chair across from you. Check out our first interview with Allie Ramsey, our Clinical Care Coordinator and Marriage & Family Therapist Intern. She's got some great thoughts on what it means to be human.

- Michelle Harwell, LMFT

Meet Allie Ramsey, Marriage and Family Therapist Intern and Clinical Care Coordinator at MHT.

M: Well, hello Allie!

A: Hi!

M: You are our first human therapist of Michelle Harwell Therapy! So how does your humanness show up in the therapy session?

A: One of the biggest ways I notice my humanness showing up is the fact that I feel very impacted by my clients stories. They really influence me and help me to think about life more complexly. Life is so packed with meaning and intensity. Getting to step into that with my clients as a fellow human means I get to live very richly with them. It is very fulfilling.

M: You are saying something about a contemporary view about how we think about change in therapy. Old models would see the therapist as an observer or objective voice that is separate from the client. But you are talking about about a very different view. That there is something two person going on in that, your clients, even though you are there and focusing on their story, you are also a part of it. And you are impacted by them. Alot of times clients don't know that they impact us. That we carry them. That we are inspired by them. That we are touched and moved by them and changed. That our clinical work can enhance our own lives. And I think because of that, we can make change. It is the very fact that we care and can be impacted means it is a real connection.

M: The other thing I was thinking about was some of the aspects of your humanness that is impactful to me. That draws me to you...One aspect that comes to mind when I think of you is kindness. That is an attribute of your humanness that is impactful to me. There is an author named Adam Phillips and he defines kindness as the ability to ones own vulnerability in ourselves and that of an another. To be connect and to stay soft, open and tender. I think about that, when I think about you.

A: So for those who will be watching and don't know. Being from Washingtion and moving to LA, something I have bumped up a lot against is a pressure to be more sophisticated then I am or a little more in the know then I tend to be. I've come to value a lot of this as there is so much artistic vitality in LA culture. But sophistication is something I keep running up against because I don't feel like I am a very sophisticated person. Its just not part of my soul. ButI feel some freedom in trusting in being kind as enough.

M: I think you are talking about how you come across in groups. I experience this with you. When you don't know something or when you are not sure about something, you are apt to say it and be in your authenticity with a kind of grace, curiosity and silliness that invites people to be along for the ride. I think you have a real inviting presence.

M: Is there anything people would be surprised to know about you?

A: Most things probably...One thing people would be surprised to know is that for most of my life ant through college I was a collegiate level sprinter. Although I don't think I look or present that way anymore. I don't look nearly as fierce as I used to. But there is a part of me that pretty competitive and enjoys the intense part of life. I have a need for speed.

M: Laughs.

A: You wouldn't catch me going fast in my Prius though.

M: Its funny. I knew you were an athlete but what is new to me, but it makes more sense, that there is an internal competitor.

A: Oh, yes. There certainly is.

M: Laughs

A: I'm not sure how it shows up these days. It shows up in little ways. I'm looking for more outlets. I'm joining a kickboxing community because, you know, you got to get a little competitive somewhere.

M: I think we need an MHT games night. A team game night so we can really see the personality come out on our team. We need to do our developmental assessment with all the therapists.

A: My frustration might be kind of low. There is this one game my husband really likes. He goes deep. There is this game we play together that cold war, very long, narrative based game. And we had been playing for about an hour and it was demanding all of my mental capacities and I lost. I said, "I can't talk to you. I have to take a shower." That's the level I can get to.

M: I love it. It's a little Brombergian self-state. A little island that gets activated around competitiveness. I need to know this side of you more. It makes me happy to know that there is this intense person in there.

M: So finally, what does humanness mean to you?

A: One of the first things that comes to mind when I think of humanness is worth or value. I think being human mean having an immense amount of worth and value. Being worthy of a lot of honor. That is one of my central organizing thoughts as a therapist, that my main job is to honor the person I am with. Somehow for me that captures what it means to really care and give my very best to each client that I sit with. To try and step into their shoes and try and understand what it means to be them, what they experience. Humanness means be worthy of that. Being worthy of being understood.

M: Beautifully said.

Dr. Michelle Harwell, PsyD, LMFT is an expert trainer, respected speaker, and licensed therapist in trauma and attachment. She is noted for her specialization in areas of development, attachment, trauma, and neuroscience, and her ability to communicate complex topics with clarity and humor. Michelle completed her PhD in Psychoanalysis from The Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis. She received her BA in English Literature from University of Oklahoma, MA in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary, and MS in Marriage and Family Therapy from the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology.

A Place to Dwell: An Interview with Annie Choi, Owner of Found Coffee

November 22, 2016

Annie Choi, Founder and Owner of Found Coffee in Eagle Rock, Los Angeles.

Lauren: I’m with Annie Choi from Found Coffee here at Michelle Harwell Therapy....Well, Annie it’s so good to meet you.

Annie: So lovely to meet you, too

Lauren: So we’re talking a lot about the idea of home here at MHT and we’re wanting to know how you came to find a home at Found. So, to get started, maybe you can just tell me a little bit about what drew you to pursue 3rd Wave Coffee and eventually establishing Found?

Annie: Actually that’s a really great question because I was in the process of switching careers - I was working in entertainment and I was working post-production. And so for me, something that’s really important is storytelling. And so I thought “OK I’m going to tell stories in TV.” And when I was working in post-production, I was actually behind a screen for 12 hours a day with headphones, so it ended up being very isolating and lonely. And I’ve always wanted to open a coffee shop - going to coffee shops and coffee shop-hopping has been a hobby for me. So, when I entered coffee, the first two weeks of being in coffee I felt like my lifelong friends.

I think it’s because just being in the service industry, too, people are welcoming and they know about customer service. And so for Found I wanted definitely to create a space where people were comfortable. And I think also the church for a really long time has been a place where people have been able to find community. And I think LA has changed and I go to church, but I feel like as I was working in coffee, I found a lot of regulars found community in the coffee shop. And so I wanted to create that kind of vibe and that kind of atmosphere at my own coffee shop. And I think Eagle Rock is the perfect place for it because everyone here is so supportive of small businesses and I have SO many regulars. And I think the regulars are the heartbeat of my coffee shop, they allow me to pay my guys, they come every day, we know their kids, we know their dogs, so I think in that sense for Found I wanted home for a lot of people. And a cup of coffee is very comforting. And I think that too creates a sense of home and a sense of familiarity. And so I was really excited to do that and it’s kind of evolved to be that for a lot of people, especially in this kind of community.

Lauren: Beautiful - how you’ve been able to transfer that desire for community into your passion for coffee. Can you tell me about the first cup of coffee you really enjoyed? Where was it? Who was with you?

Annie: So, I didn’t actually start drinking real coffee for a while, until I was in college. I can’t tell you when I had my first cup of coffee but I can tell you my best cup of coffee. When I was switching careers, during my gap year, I went to Costa Rica on my own and went to a coffee plantation and I had the best cup of coffee in my life. The beans were grown there. And I like to put sugar and milk in my coffee sometimes, and the sugar was grown there, they had a sugar plantation, it was crystalized there, too, the milk was milked from the cows on the farm...So it was just this natural, everything organic, wonderful cup of coffee that I had gotten from the source. And I realized how much work went into it and so that’s definitely - it was just - it was so incredible.

Lauren: Yeah and I feel like that ties into community, too. It’s not just an isolated cup of coffee. There are people who harvested the beans, there’s folks who milked the cows...

Annie: The family who owned the farm...yeah they put a lot of hard work into it.

Lauren: In this day and age, and especially in Los Angeles, 3rd wave coffee shops have become a place for people to meet, artisan coffee is a common topic of conversation, it’s even a listed interest in many instagram bios…what is about coffee specifically that you feel draws people together in Los Angeles?

Annie: Well, I think 3rd wave coffee just started to explode in the last 5 years. Thankfully, there have been coffee shops for ages and ages, but I think specialty coffee, because there is such craft and care that goes into the product - a lot of specialty coffee shops are independent, mom and pop shops - because of that I feel that a lot of people in LA, especially, know what is a good product. They also want good product and quality. In 3rd wave coffee there’s just so much effort that goes behind it. I don’t know if anyone has explained to you what 3rd wave coffee is, but this is what I tell my guys whenever I interview them. First wave is instant coffee, mass commodity delivered to your home, immediately available. Second wave is the fast-food culture of coffee. 3rd wave is where you’re actually caring about the origin of the bean, everything is hand crafted by the cup. And so there’s a lot more care that goes behind it. And I think because of this artisanal food movement, there’s so much love that goes behind it, there’s a lot of passion. People are drawn to that. Because they know it’s been made with love.

Also, I think with Found, especially, - I was instilled with this knowledge when I was working in my first coffee job - my old boss told me, “You can’t teach personality.” And I think customer service is a big part of my shop in the sense that all my staff, they’re very kind people. They’re very warm. Thankfully I have control over who I can staff. I think people are drawn to that too. With other shops, I hear this a lot, “I hate it when in 3rd wave coffee shops, the baristas are so snobby.” Whereas for me I don’t like to say that we’re “coffee snobs,” we’re “coffee enthusiasts.” With my guys I stress to them that they be friendly. In the interview process I see if they have a good heart. With the bigger chains, it’s harder to handpick people that are good-hearted because they have so much volume and they just need people to work. Whereas for me, I’m definitely smaller and I get to choose. And I’ve told my guys too it’s really important for them to develop relationships with the regulars. To know their first names, you always get their name.

Lauren: It’s not just the product they’re getting, but there’s a human behind the coffee and what the human is showing is love behind the coffee. There’s passion.

Annie: It’s the connection.

Lauren: Beautiful. Well, when I was hearing you talk, I was thinking it sounds like coffee is sort of a means to an end - coffee is the means, and the the end being community, human connection or - home.

Annie: I like the way you put that, it’s actually right on the ball.

Lauren: We’ve been reading a psychoanalyst called Robert Stolorow, here at MHT and in his works, he writes about the importance of finding a relational home. He shares about, and I’m liberally paraphrasing here, how mismatched or shattered pieces of our story need to discover a home within relationship - with friends, families, coworkers, communities. How do you feel Found coffee represents a kind of home for mismatched pieces in that way?

Annie: Hm. Well, maybe not mismatched pieces, but the vast array and types of people that you meet in a coffee shop are so different. I think being a coffee shop owner, I get to meet these people, and their stories all add to mine. I love hearing people’s stories and where they’re from and I think behind it all is that everyone struggles, everyone struggles well, everyone has joys, too. And so I tell this to my staff, “if you have a rude customer, give them the benefit of the doubt in the beginning. You don’t know their story, you don’t know if they’re having a bad day.”

The type of people, the network of people I meet, they are the mismatched pieces, and the connection between them all is that they are human. I am so thankful because I get to meet so many different types of people. Something I like to do, on a personal note, is to connect people to each other. So, for instance, we had a guy who was a recruiter at an entertainment studio and I know that my friend has been wanting to animate forever and so I connected the two. And I asked, “Can I do an intro?” And they both were like, “Yeah!”

And then also on the other hand, too, I think coffee shops are a really special place where people who are on the shyer side, I get to bring them out. We have a little bar area and it’s three seats, it’s very close to the barista making the drinks. When I first opened, a girl, I could tell was into coffee, but she didn’t want to talk. And as she came every other day for weeks I got to know her, I slowly got her to talk, and then I realized she wanted to intern at Found. So I interviewed her and she is one of my best now. I told her on the first day, “You need to learn how to need to talk! It’s ok to talk.” And she said, “I know, I know. I’m a little shy.“ And I said, “That’s ok. We’ll find a way for your passion to come through, too.”

Lauren: There are people who have their own unique stories as customers. They feel care in the product, or they feel the care in customer service, they’re understood, there’s a patience there. We’re all human.

When I think about coffee itself, it draws to mind aspects similar to community - it is warm, comforting; it perks you up when you’re having trouble getting through your day; it is rich and flavorful - even to the last drop. What do you consider on a daily basis (from coffee composition to design of your space to interactions with people) that helps Found Coffee consistently feel like home for your customers?

Annie: When people ask me why I call Found Coffee "Found," I have two main reasons, and then a third one. First one is that a lot of things in my shop are Found. They are vintage, upcycled. They have been loved, and they will be loved again. Secondly, I want community to be found, it’sa very big thing for me. In the beginning I had one communal table, now I have two. I’m really eager for people to meet each other and not to be a Laptop City. I love introducing regulars to each other, because then they know the person in their own neighborhood. It’s really great! The third reason why I called Found Coffee “Found” was because I really found who I was in the last 5-6 years, and one of those parts is I found myself in coffee. And I think with all these elements, the communal tables especially, that’s a big part in just providing a space and a place where people are able to find each other in community. It allows for people who haven’t seen each other in a long time to meet. And I think also with the design of the shop, it’s not 30 single tables. I also like to keep it very bright. You see some coffee shops, they’re darker, they’re a little more somber. For me, even the espresso machine is yellow! I think the reason is, you know a lot of Subway restaurants are painted yellow, the walls yellow because it invites people. For me, I took that into consideration for the machine, the main workhorse of my shop, so people feel welcomed, feel invited. And then yeah, it’s just a place where I hope people feel comforted in that everything is close, you don’t feel like you’re stepping on each others’ toes, but also, you have people are nearby.

Lauren: There’s so much there. There’s a sense of closeness with the people you are with, there’s also space to be who you are, and there’s also space to connect. There’s intentional space to connect, where you turn to your right and there’s a person that you can connect with.

Annie: Also a big thing for me is displaying local artists on my walls, allowing creativity from the community to be displayed. They’re all local artists I’m really proud to say that. For instance right now is a family. The father took black and white photos, their 3 year-old girl drew on them and the mother is a weaver and she wove those pieces. Even in the artwork, I hope to convey family. You know?

Lauren: That’s a huge part of home, it feels like family. There’s elements of that.

Annie: And I think also, our regulars see the same baristas every day. And so, that is actually intentional, too. So they don’t feel, for instance, out of place. I’ve been very fortunate my current staff has been with me for a while. They’ve actually maintained regular relationships with the locals so that’s really exciting to me, they ask how they are, I think some have friended each other on Facebook.

Lauren: There’s so much thought that went into designing this. You get an amazing product and a sense of connection in a city you so often get lost in.

Annie: I think something God has gifted me in as an entrepreneur is I am able to create spaces that gather people. And so I love, I used to hate when my worlds collided, but now I’m just like OK fine you guys have gotta meet each other, so I love that Found is a place where people can just come together. Something else, is I used to be an event coordinator, and so because of that experience, too, I know what draws people in. I don’t want my space to feel so cluttered where people feel uncomfortable but where it feels airy, it feels light. It’s not too over-designed. Keep it simple so people can do their thing.

Lauren: They can be themselves. I’m even thinking about the brightly lit space at Found, you can actually see one another, you can actually be curious about the people around you.

Annie: Right, something that I really value is transparency, the reason why my bar is open is you get to see how your coffee is being made from the bar so if people have questions, I’m not gonna look down on you. I don’t know everything, but if you want to learn about coffee and how it’s made and what temperatures it’s at, etc, etc, we’re totally open to tell you, and also to talk about it with you. So I think people see that, too. They see that, “Oh, they’re not going to look down on me because I don’t know a lot about coffee.” So specialty coffee - because it’s a bit more particular, a bit more crafted - it can seem daunting to people. But I tell my guys, “Be open to it. Talk to people - they want to learn.” You can tell when people are really eager to talk to baristas and we just engage them in conversation. So it’s just about being transparent about what you do know and what you don’t know.

Lauren: If someone is curious you’re responsive to them. Well it’s been such a pleasure hearing more about your story. Is there anything else you’d like to add about Found Coffee?

Annie: Yes, something that is really important to me is I don’t want Found to be a place where people feel awkward and excluded. I am actually quite sensitive to that. I want to be inclusive. That’s a big part of community. And I think community is not defined as a people who are all uniform, and the same. I think coffee is really lovely because most people love coffee, and we have something to offer most everyone, even with tea, we have tea too. I feel like it’s a simple meeting ground where people can engage and have a similar interest with people that are different from them. Community is basically broken people or people who have different stories coming together. That’s my community at Found and I am super thankful.

Annie Choi is the founder and owner of Found Coffee in Eagle Rock, Los Angeles. She is also the co-founder of FrankieLucy Bakeshop, a collaborative coffee and pastry shop that will soon open in Silver Lake, Los Angeles.

Lauren Masopust, MS, MFT Intern has extensive experience working with young adults, adolescents, and couples, and specializes in areas of trauma, identity development, and multicultural issues.

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